MNBob's 1979 TATA 5 Speed

[MNBob]

It is good to hear from you guys as well.  The spindles are from CPP and I ordered them through Summit.  They are made to fit Corvette brakes and hubs on our cars. The control arms are also through Summit and they are the Global West brand. They have a number of advantages, but most noted is the grease-able del-alum bushings.

Busy is the word. We bought a rear wheel drive VW ID 4 EV a couple of years ago and I have been trying to add trailering. Getting a trailer hitch was easy, but adding trailer wiring has proved to be a problem. The VW dealer has told me there is no way it can be done. The VW forum also confirmed this for the 2023 model.

Well I like a challenge, so I decided to make my own trailering controller. Below is a picture of the prototype. It is a little kludgy because the passenger has to operate the turn signals (see the handheld box on the right). The brake lights are automatic with a contact switch off the pedal.  I don't trailer often, but at least will be able to do so when I need to.


Trailer Controller Prototype Bench Test


Lower Control Arms

[ryeguy2006a]

Those CPP spindles are a great upgrade. I'm running them on my 55. Replacing the updated control arms will give you a much better handling car in the end as well.

[MNBob]

Greetings to everyone. After a busy May and early June, it is finally time to get going on the T.A. The project for this year is the same as last, a front end rebuild including new control arms, spindles, springs and C5/C6 front disc brakes.

I have already taken the car for the first drive of the year and I'm happy to report that everything is working great except the parking brake. The parking brake is working but going all the way to the floor so I have to investigate that. Here is a picture of the car parked by the lake.

[N PRGRES]

Looking good!!!!

[roadking77]

Glad to see you back at it.

[MNBob]

Parking Brake Fix

As I reported in my first post, the parking brake was going all the way to the floor. I put the car up on ramps and found that one of the cables had broken off where it was brazed to the adjustment rod. The heat must have hardened the cable and caused it to break off there.

There was enough cable and rod so all I had to do was a fix. I cut off what was left and carefully drilled a new 1 inch deep hole in the end of the threaded rod. This time when I went to braze it on, I tried to keep the heat in the rod rather than the cable. This didn't go too well, and I ended up turning up the heat on the torch and melting the end of the rod. At any rate, it held so all I had to do was reinstall.

In other news, I have decided not to use the stock style C5/C6 caliper, but to go with the Willwood four piston caliper and ceramic pads. These have been ordered and received and I'm just waiting on the hubs.


Broken Cable


Cable Out


Ready to Braze


After Repair

[stros]

Nice job!  I also think you’ll be happier with the 4 piston Wilwood kit. 

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo Day 1

July has been really busy with family holidays and family as guests. It is finally over and I cleaned out the garage yesterday. So today was a good time to start on the suspension project. I picked up some tools prior to starting this project. The first was a Ryobi work light from Home Depot. Then I purchased a couple of stools from Harbor Freight that I thought might make this job go easier (see below).

The first thing I did was to put the car up on ramps and pull the shocks and swaybar. See picture. Then I put the car in a good spot in the garage to work on the right front. Everything went good and I finished the day ready to remove the spring tomorrow.

[N PRGRES]

Looks like it was a good day!

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo Day 2

So not a lot of time today, but I did get out there for a while. This is supposed to be the last good day of weather before the hot spell. The first thing was to chain the spring to the control arm for safety. This was very easy to do, see picture. After that, it was about ten hits on the castle nut with the 3 pound hammer to loosen the lower of ball joint.

Then I put the floor jack underneath the control arm and jacked up the control arm, took the castle nut off and, and slowly lowered the Jack. This was all very anti-climactic, as I had fretted about this job for years. With the spring chained in, I felt this was a very safe procedure.

I tried to separate the upper ball joint with a pickle fork, but it would not separate. So I just removed the control arm and the spindle at the same time. Out on the floor, I could get a good whack at the castle nut and separated the two.


Chained in Spring


Ready to Lower


Lowered


Upper Control Arm and Sprindle


Final For Today

[FormTA]

I always save my projects for winter. There are only so many good days I can drive my car. I really need finish my ac system.  Anyway looks like you have a good start to it!

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo Day 3

It was supposed to be hot, but clouds rolled in today. No drama, I removed the rest of the parts. The economical Harbor Freight Pittsburgh prybar that I picked up a year ago came in really handy for the spring removal. One of the A-frame pivot bolts was rusted and fought me all the way off. There was a spring pad on the top of the spring, see the last picture.


Spring and Prybar

[scarebird]

...Then I put the floor jack underneath the control arm and jacked up the control arm, took the castle nut off and, and slowly lowered the Jack. This was all very anti-climactic, as I had fretted about this job for years. With the spring chained in, I felt this was a very safe procedure...

Glad you got over this hump.

I removed about 100 sets of B body spindles when that conversion was in vogue and they filled the yards.   Since they did not allow jacks at Pick-n-Pulls I would simply leave the shocks in.  Smack the tie rods out, loosen lower and remove upper ball joint then pluck out the spindles.   

If the springs had to go I would use a spring compressor in place of the shock.

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo Continued
After I got all the old parts out, there were a lot of little miscellaneous things to do. I rust treated and painted the inside of the subframe near the coil spring perch. A brush on a stick allowed me to go at least a foot into the subframe. I chased the threads on the fasteners as well. Also, the perch area where the new lower control arm attaches was filled with undercoating, paint, rust, and dirt. I cleaned up that area with a wire brush. See picture.

I also did some inventorying of parts. Everything was there, except I could not find the coil springs. For two days, I explored every nook and cranny of our little walkout rambler and couldn't find them. Finally, I located them in the attic of the garage in the front corner. This is the type of thing that can happen when a project spans years.

I want ahead and tried to install the lower control arm. To say it fit tightly in there, is an understatement. The only way I could get the control arm to move was to hit it with a heavy rubber mallet. Long story short it was not easy and I ended up taking them in and out twice. The first time the sleeves were not the right size and I had to go back to the kit and install the sleeves for 9/16 bolts. The second time I got it in nicely, but then I tried to get the spring into the pocket in the frame and it would not go at all. It was too long.

The new springs are an inch and a half longer than the originals. I now realize I'm have to compress the springs prior to the installation of the lower control arms. This whole spring compression thing makes me nervous, so I stopped for a pause.


Painted Spring Perch (missed areas fixed after viewing photo)


Cleaned Mount Surface


Spring Comparison

[roadking77]

Looking from the outside, are you sure those springs are correct. Looks to me like there is an extra loop in there? I would imagine in 40 years they would compress a bit but that much? Good luck, I am with you, I dont like doing anything at all with compressed springs.

[N PRGRES]

Those look like they will raise your car not lower it

[MNBob]

These are the 300 pound lightweight springs. The lower the spring constant is, it makes for a longer free height. I looked all this up in the Moog catalog.

[FormTA]

Interesting.  I used Hotkis 2" drop springs on my car and they were larger diameter wires and shorter free length.  Definitely lowered my car and firmed up the ride a bit. I used PTFB GT rear leafs to compliment them.

[MNBob]

I am trying to get to a better ride and am hoping the softer springs will provide it.  I am also hoping that car settles on them from the weight so the ride height is no more than what it is now and ideally a little less.

[N PRGRES]

It a good idea, I'll be interested if it results in a mushy feel, make sure you let us know!

[roadking77]

Gotcha, That makes sense. Good Luck with the install.

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo Continued

Both the upper control arms and the lower control arms came with unpainted metal parts. I don't like any unpainted parts on the car, so I painted these. I also installed the upper control arms, see picture. Then I attached the upper spring pad to the spring with zip ties.

I've done a lot of thinking about how to install these springs. My coil spring compressor, when fitted in the upper shock hole, only grabs a little less than two thirds of the spring. The threads on the compressor are about 12 inches long. Since I have to compress the spring quite a bit, I would prefer to have almost all of the spring coils in the compression.

With that in mind, I ordered a new 18-inch, 5/8 x 11 high-strength steel threaded rod. This will let me use the bottom of the spring compressor and draw it upward with coupler nuts at the top.


Painting Upper Control Arm Hardware


Upper Control Arm Installed


Upper Pad Attached

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo Continued

The threaded rod method that I described in my last post would not work. The reason is because the threaded rod goes down and will interfere with putting the spring in the A-frame pocket because the rod is protruding beyond the bottom of the spring. After figuring this out, I then decided to have a nut on the top of the shock mount and draw the rod up.

With that in mind, I went out yesterday determined to get this done. I hooked up this rod method 2 set up and took pictures of what it looked like. See below. I put a socket on the coupling nut and started to crank the whole system up. This went fine until the rod came out of the nut so far that I could no longer get a socket on it. There is an upward flange protruding from the shock mount and this even prevented me from getting a wrench on the coupling nut. While there are a lot of adaptations of this method that might be able to make it work, they all require an open end or box wrench to turn the nut, a real pain. Method two was a fail!

I then decided to go with the spring compressor with the top hooks removed. Because the spring compressor hooks are only hooked up about 2/3 of the way down, there is no problem with the rod protruding as in method 1 above. I only screwed on the hook shaft about a half an inch to start. This allowed me to get maximum extension and hook up about five coils.

An impact driver was used to snug up the 1st inch. Then I hooked up the safety chain. Up another inch and I was able to drive the lower control arm in from below and get the bolts in. Then another 2 inches up and it looked like the spring was about the right length to fit in when moved to the pocket.

At the start, the spring was pretty straight. As I drew it up, the bottom of it moved forward and out. Of course, the direction I needed it to go was inward and back. The bottom of the spring was about 6 inches from the spring pocket in the control arm. I went and got a ratchet strap, hooked up to the other side of the car frame and pulled the spring over and back about 4 inches. I then used the prybar to get it to the edge of the spring pocket. More fiddling using the floor jack and changes to the spring compressor, and it finally popped in the pocket!


Method 2 Ready to Start


Method 2 Ready to Start From Above


Spring Compressor Method Hooking Safety Chain


Not Compressed Enough


Pulled with Ratchet Strap


In Pocket!!


Happy Man!

[N PRGRES]

Looks Great!  When I did mine, I took them to a spring shop and had them compressed and banded, install was alot easier

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo Final Fitting

First up is a picture of the part number for the 300 pound springs. I will definitely report back here on whether these springs are soft, mushy, springy, or good. This should be taken in the context that I've already taken over 100 pounds off the front end of my car.

I proceeded with the assembly of the system and encountered two problems. The first was that I used a hammer on the crown nut of the tie rod end, and must've hit it too hard because it would not go together as the threads were stripped. See picture. I had to order a new outer tie rod end.

The second problem was the wheel would not fit on over the new brakes. The wheel spokes hit the caliper on the front face by about a quarter inch and also hit the edge of the caliper with the wheel weights. My current wheels are the US Mags U111 and they have a step down feature on the inside of the wheel. This means that even though it is a 17 inch wheel, it has the inside diameter of closer to a 16. See picture. These wheels were not a good purchase on my part.

I went ahead and ordered a new wheel that I hope will work. Actually, I think 90% of all 17 inch wheels will work. I just have odd ones.


Moog Spring Part Number


Stripped Threads


Wheel Step Inset


Caliper Mounted

New Wheel Link: 
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rwg-110s-7806100

[N PRGRES]

Thats pretty

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo (Wheels)

The new wheel came in. It was a nice looking wheel and so I immediately trial fit it to the car. There was 1/8 to ¼ inch of clearance at the caliper outside and the spokes also cleared the caliper easily. So it seemed like everything was good.

Not so fast. When I went to put on the lug nut, I could not get a socket inside the lug nut recess. Shocked, I returned the wheel to Summit. I would really like to give a shout out to Summit for their fast shipping and easy and free return policy. In addition, I only had to return the wheel to my local Walgreens.

Then I ordered a new wheel that I hope will fit, and it will be here on Monday.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rid-606-7861g

Later in the day, I did some research on this issue and it appears that there is a concept called small diameter lug nuts. These are also called spline lug nuts and they are popular on some late model cars. This is even one of the specifications on the Summit website, but the returned wheel was listed as not needed (incorrectly).

So the plan is now to try the new wheel that will be coming on Monday. If that doesn't fit, I am gonna go back to the one I returned and get the spline lug nuts.

[scarebird]

Sadly, when I was still doing brake conversions this was a constant customer gripe we heard about the Wilwood calipers.  They are nice units but wheel fitment did not seem to be any concern to them.  When I asked about this at SEMA 2010-ish their marketing types were, um, dismissive.  I suggested a version that used the GM 1985-2000ish architecture for clearance when asked what I would use - again no, they said they are "multi-piston" people...

[MNBob]

Typically, you should be able to fit a wheel that is 4" larger than the rotor size. However, places that sell the C5/C6 conversion state that not all 17" wheels will fit. I really don't know if there is a size difference from the C5/C6 caliper and the Wilwood caliper, but you would know that.

I really don't want to go to 18's for a number of reasons. I would have to get new tires. But beyond that, I think 17's give a look that is updated, but not too modern. In theory, they should also give a slightly better ride with a taller sidewall.

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo Wheels

After returning the Vision wheel, I ordered and just received a Riddler wheel, see above. Well, what a difference a wheel makes, this one fit on the outside diameter by a about 3/4 of an inch! It had plenty of room for wheel balancing weights.

However, it only cleared the face of the caliper by about 1/16 of an inch in the corner. Even though I'm an old fart, I don't know if this is enough clearance. I could always space it out a little using washers or maybe ordering a wheel spacer. There is enough lug nut thread on the hubs to at least space an eighth of an inch.

Also, the lug nuts recess was large enough to fit a standard socket. It's not that I couldn't go with the spline lug nuts, but I just think this is easier.

Here is a picture of the trial fitment:

[N PRGRES]

1/16th seems pretty tight, not sure how much that caliper moves around.  Also maybe look at companies other than summit?

[scarebird]

...I could always space it out a little using washers or maybe ordering a wheel spacer...

Under no circumstances other than Thunderdome situations ever use washers.

Longer studs and cold-rolled wheel spacers will work.  Use the minimum as pilot engagement is good here.

[kentucky yeti]

Under no circumstances other than Thunderdome situations ever use washers.

Longer studs and cold-rolled wheel spacers will work.  Use the minimum as pilot engagement is good here.

This!

[MNBob]

Thanks guys for the advice. I ordered the 1/8 " wheel spacers.

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo - Stance

I took the car off the jacks and ended up with the rocket ship look! See picture below. It is a full inch higher than before and maybe an inch and a quarter. If anything, I wanted to go down an inch.

I thought about cutting out a coil before I did the install, but with all new parts, there was no baseline to make this decision. I could've ended up cutting too much off and it's hard to put back.

I did bounce the front end up and down on both side sides. It seems that my objective is accomplished as I felt the new spring was a little bit softer than the old one. But not too much.

At any rate, it is a do over.


New Stance

[scarebird]

That looks close to factory - mine ended up an inch lower all around. slightly nose up.

[FormTA]

I wondered about that. Soft spring and low doesn't compute in my head. If it's lowered and softer it would bottom out easily (this is just my thought process maybe not reality). My Hotkis 2" lowering springs have larger coils which help it maintain ride height even under extreme compression which does make it a rougher ride I suspect. 

With all that said, with the 2" drop coils and GT rear leafs my car is nose up (looks exaggerated because I don't have my front air dam and spoilers on. But, to me doesn't look much lower than the originals I removed but that is because my car was old and the original coil springs were actually broken so what I was looking at wasn't "original " height but it was what I knew.


You may he in a tough spot. Cutting coils may get you lower but then you will probably bottom out (hit the bump stops if they are there) very frequently.  Only possibly I see with these springs would be to then pair the cut springs with stiff shocks.

Again, just my shouts and not gospel....

[MNBob]

Front Suspension Redo – Stance 2

Before I started this project, I thought it would be nice to lower the front end by about an inch. Instead, it went up about an inch and a quarter. So I decided to cut off one coil and see where it was at. It is really hard to tell how much to cut.

So today I got after it and cut off the one coil. See picture. This ended up lowering by about an inch and a half, or about 1/4 inch lower than when I began. See picture.

After reflecting on this, I think I'm going to leave it there for now. I still have the other side to do and there could be some settling, so I'm gonna wait. I am not a fan of going low on these cars.


Cut Off One Coil


After Cutting

[scarebird]

One thing people forget is that these cars relied on the slight nose up attitude to ensure drainage of the rocker channels.

[N PRGRES]

Just a thought, buy parts to actually accomplish what you want, like maybe good quality lowering springs NOT FROM SUMMIT.