TAC Spotlight => Projects & Restorations => Topic started by: MNBob on March 24, 2021, 05:52:36 PM
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Restart Of Build Thread
So everyone has to restart their build thread. My previous build details ran from 2012-2020. I am not going to recreate the thread; but rather give a synopsis of the previous activities and go on from there. If you are not interested in anthologies, but only want to see activities with pics, you can skip my first few posts.
The previous thread was called "79 TATA With 35,000 Miles Project". The mileage referred to 2011 when I took the car out of storage. It is now up to about 38-39K. I am going to call this one "MNBob's 1979 TATA 5 Speed".
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51069684651_daa51c9658_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kNRu1k)
Cruising Around Lake (https://flic.kr/p/2kNRu1k)
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It is too bad, you did such a great job with your detailed posts. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what lies ahead!
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How I Ended Up With A 1979 TATA (The never before told story.)
It was 1978 and I was a TA at the university teaching Macro Economics 1001 and Micro Economics 1002. I needed a new car and with a limited budget, decided on a Oldsmobile Starfire GT. This was similar to a Chevy Monza. The Starfire was available with a V8 4 speed or a V6 4 speed with air. Since I wanted air, I chose the V6.
This decision turned out to be a huge mistake. The Buick V6 was rated at 105 HP, but it felt more like 50 HP. In addition, the engine with all of its smog equipment, ran rough and was boggy. At the time, there were a lot of people with "I could have had a V8" signs in their cars and I was one of them.
In May of 1979, I started looking for a new car. After the Starfire, I wanted the largest HP available. I quickly zeroed in on a Trans Am or a Z28. After some trips to the dealership, I found out that all TA's with the 220 HP engine and the 4 speed were already sold out. I thought about the Z28 (185HP) because I wanted a manual, but my mind kept going back to memories of friends who had Pontiac V8's and were very happy with them.
I started to look in the newspaper thinking maybe someone who had just purchased one might sell it. After some time, I found one! The seller was a speculator who had purchased the car as an investment and now had decided to sell. He explained to me that it was a special model called a Tenth Anniverary and I knew nothing about it. I went to look at it and it had 42 miles; 48 when I finished my test drive.
He wanted full list for it and I was not about to argue. By this time, I was working as a energy consultant, and could afford it with a loan from the credit union. My father said I was crazy to pay that much for a car, but to this day I am so glad I went for it!
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Cool story, thanks for sharing it! Sounds like luck was on your side to find one.
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Great story, probably very few TATA still in the original owners hands. But I bet there are a lot of previous owners who wished they never sold their TATA.
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Where Am I Going? (No Pics)
It has been 10 years since I took the car out of storage and began working on it. A lot has been accomplished as all systems are working perfectly. It is a lot better car than the day I bought it almost new.
The W72 motor is smooth and responsive. However, by today's standards it is low on power, especially for a heavy car. I have thought about a cam and aluminum heads, but I do not think that is going to get to the power level that I want.
Building a new 455 would could get the power to about 500 HP and 600 ft-lbs. This would also allow me to retire the numbers matching engine at 40,000 miles and yield a spare engine. They even have stroker kits to up the cubes.
I called Butler to inquire about building a motor to my specs (aluminum heads, roller cam, etc) and desired HP. They were responsive and gave me a ball park estimate for what I want. The figure was higher than I expected. In addition, they are a year out on builds so I could only get it in 2022.
After this I began thinking about other solutions and came up with the idea of a crate motor. Big block Chevy's were used in early Camaros and and lot of people have coverted 2nd Gen's to them. Most crate engines come with a warranty as well. I looked around and found these samples which are a lot less money than building a serious 455:
https://www.jegs.com/i/Blueprint-Engines/138/BP4967CT/10002/-1 (https://www.jegs.com/i/Blueprint-Engines/138/BP4967CT/10002/-1)
https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/19419002/10002/-1 (https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/19419002/10002/-1)
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MNBob,
I understand how building a Pontiac is more expensive and harder to get the same power levels of an LS or BBC. One concern I would have is how to make the shaker hood scoop fit and work. You will also spend money on different engine mounts, accessory drive brackets, pulleys, trans adapters and different wiring. The cost of all these items add up and should be factored into the bottom line. You likely already know all of this. Regardless, I am looking forward to hearing more.
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Thanks for the response, all good points. I have done my homework on this and looked up a lot of information. There are a number of Camaro guys that have installed a BBC in a second gen. I already have a spreadsheet for extras and they total about $3500 with all premium parts (serpentine, ceramic headers, etc.). The total is still less than a full on 455+ build. You were lucky to get your engine like you did as prices have gone much higher in recent years.
The hood scoop is always a consideration. The early Camaro BBC engine mounts are said to be lower and provide more room for header clearance. Also, 68-69 427 Corvettes came with an ultra low profile intake that provided maximum hood clearance. I think there is some wiggle room on the engine mount position so the QJ flange on the intake can be in the same position relative to the firewall.
About the only builder I would trust right now for a build like this is Butler. If anyone knows a capable builder that they have used recently, they can chime in.
There are a lot of Pontiac builds that have ended up being horror stories. Since every Pontiac engine is essentially hand built, there are many opportunities for errors. Things like cams going flat, bearings turned the wrong way, etc. I have read a lot of these threads.
I understand "If you want to play, you have to pay". But what I don't want is paying and having to pay again. It just seems like a crate engine is lower risk solution here.
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MNBob, sounds like you definitely have done your homework. I was planning on just doing a warmed over 455 for my car when the opportunity to get an engine built by Butler at a good discount came up. I talked in detail to Scott Gray, for a good half hour. Scott said they have had to redo a lot of engines that were not done correctly. He also told me they were a good year backed up on builds. Scott warned me to be very careful about choosing a good builder. I am sure there are still plenty of capable Pontiac builders out there, but probably nothing like there used to be. I personally believe that a factory built crate engine will give you good bang for your buck with great reliability.
I am not sure there is no wrong choice here, especially if you can keep your original 400. With every day that passes there will be less cars that are 100% original. Especially a TATA.
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Engine Choice
So I have pretty much decided on the ZZ 502 (see link above). The specs are 508 HP at 5200 rpm and 580 ft-lbs at 3600 rpm. This BBC motor comes with oval port aluminum heads, roller cam, forged rods, forged crank, forged pistons, 4 bolt mains and a one piece rear main seal.
There are BBC's that make more power (even a lot), but this is typically done with higher lifts and pushing the power range up in rpm. For me, this is a street only engine so a milder cam that makes torque is the best. This engine produces over 500 ft-lbs from 2500 to 5000 rpm.
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Sounds good to me.
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Great choice on your engine, should be excellent for street driving. You could pull a house off the foundation with that kind of torque! Any idea what kind of transmission and rear axel ratio you will be running?
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My extreme TKO that I purchased in 2018 is rated to 950 ft-lbs of torque so no problem there. The ten bolts are said to withstand most power levels except drag racing with slicks. The gearing is perfect now with a 3.23 and the 5 speed cruising at 1900 at 70 mph.
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MNBOB,
With a 3.23 axel ratio and a TKO 5 speed you have the best of both worlds. With your new engine should be a very enjoyable combination for cruising or brutal acceleration.
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Yes, the TKO has a 2.87 first gear and with the 3.23 it is all the starting gear I need or want. Some guys use the TKO with a 3.42 or even 3.73! Good for nothing except burning rubber; especially with a big motor.
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Engine Choice (part 2)
I am very disappointed as the ZZ502 is not currently available. It gets to be this time of year and everyone is doing projects so things go out of stock. I checked at Jegs and a company called Pace Performance out of Ohio. No ETA. I was really set on this engine because it seemed to be very streetable (mild cam, etc) as well as offering HP, torque and value.
I searched again and found a new possible engine from ATK. ATK is a well respected engine builder and has good reviews on the forums. This engine is a 489 with E street aluminum heads, milder roller cam, forged pistons and rods, one piece rear main seal, 4 bolt mains and roller rockers. The numbers are more than the 502 at 565HP and 595TQ. Here is the what I am currently considering:
https://www.jegs.com/i/ATK-Engines/059/HP411P/10002/-1 (https://www.jegs.com/i/ATK-Engines/059/HP411P/10002/-1)
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Its a shame the one you had picked out isnt available, but it looks like the second choice will do the trick as well. If you really had your heart set on the first maybe it will be in by the fall and you can swap over the winter. That way you have a car to drive this summer.
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What about this here
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19419002
Order today and ships Monday
It looked like you need a core for the ATK unit as well
JT
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I'm happy you had to go back and post the history with this car. I think I came around long after your original thread started and I don't recall knowing how you and your TATA met.
Great story.
Good luck with your quest for the right Engine!
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ZZ502 Ordered!!!!
Thanks, RamblerRacer. I actually discovered this on my own this morning for some reason before I read this. Duh, Jegs and Pace, I don't know why I didn't think of Summit because I order there all the time.
Tom, thanks for the comments.
Now we'll see if an old fart like me can get this job done!
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Good news!
Did you see my PM?
I’m not sure how you can change the view so you can see the PMs you send.
I get emails when I get PMs, and I hoped you would too, and kept checking myself if they still had two left. Now just say only one. Sweeeeet. Anyway great news you found it and ordered one up.
It looks like a great foundation to build on.
What are your plans for intake, fuel ignition and exhaust?
We can all live a little vicariously through you.
My build would be Performer Plus intake, Holley Sniper controlling spark with it and a decent set of shorty headers, ceramic coated like you mentioned. I see you had the Sniper already in your sig. just have to do the BBC intake and headers I guess.
I’ll post some pictures when I get on my PC as to how I tackled the shaker mounting.
JT
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Here is a picture of the air cleaner assembly I made.
Its a few years old in this picture.
i had to fabricate this because the existing air cleaner would not fit on the FiTech throttle body.
It uses a flat air filter that i believe is from a Pontiac Solstice that I chose because it fit the target size I had in mind.
(https://i.imgur.com/7i8ZGUIl.jpg)
I don't have any pictures on top that slides over the base on Imgur, but it is apart i the garage and I'll ad them later
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MN Bob,
I am very happy you were able to get the ZZ502 ordered, I got the impression this is the engine you really wanted. Being kind of an old fart myself, I have no doubt you will get this done. I can’t wait to watch your progress.
Also really great people like JT were looking out for you. Part of what makes TAC so good.
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RamblerRacer, I am going to be using the early style BBC 2nd gen Camaro mounts which are said to be the lowest. I am also going to get the ultimate low profile BBC intake ever used, the aluminum spreadbore piece used in 1968-69 427 Corvettes. I don't care if I give up a few HP. My current Holley Sniper QJ is advertised to be good to 500 HP so I will be using that. A HEI will be used at first and I will convert to Hyperspark later. Hedman makes the same type of silver ceramic headers I have now for BBC Camaro.
I am very happy you were able to get the ZZ502 ordered, I got the impression this is the engine you really wanted. Being kind of an old fart myself, I have no doubt you will get this done. I can’t wait to watch your progress.
I just felt this was the best choice for a street-able engine with power. I think the ATK engine above would also be good. I am 73 now so a lot of those things called years, but still in good condition. So now was the time to act.
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Engines with warranties are a really good thing! My Dad went all out on his 496 BBC build because he didn't want to spend that much up front. But because he spread it out, he ended up spending about 1.5x what it cost for a crate motor AND it took him 4 years to finish. Smart move on the crate motor. BBC's make so much torque. Will be a solid upgrade, but won't hurt the value since you have the # Matching engine too.
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MNBob,
The ZZ502 should be lots of fun while still providing great reliability and drive ability. About the only negative I can think of other than fuel consumption, is frequent rear tire replacement 😂
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Fan Controller Installation
I want to get a few things done and a little driving the car before I start working on the new engine install. One item on my todo list was to install the new Auto Cool III PWM fan controller. This turned out to be a lot of wiring as it operates in a completely different way than the old system (relays). I also wanted to maintain my under dash fan on indicator light.
So I got it all in but it needed a few tweaks. The controller was letting the fan come on at about 130 degrees and I didn't want that. To stop this, I had to add a relay and trigger it off one of the Sniper fan controls. It now turns on the fan controller on at 175 and off at 160. I also adjusted the controller knob to the warm setting and with that it idles in the driveway at about 170.
The nicest thing about the new controller is the fan never runs at full power (speed) and thus is much quieter. The old way of operation had it come on at full speed and run that way until the engine cooled and then it would shut off.
ZZ502 Delivery
I had some concerns going in about this, but it could not have been better! Summit shipped it with SAIA trucking. They sent me regular email updates on the shipping status. The engine came for delivery on a lift truck and the driver put it on a palette jack and wheeled it into my garage! I didn't have to do anything but tell him where I wanted it!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191821641_7f61ceaf3b_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZDt5v)
Auto Cool III Fan Controller Installed (https://flic.kr/p/2kZDt5v)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51191181272_0136c701d8_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZAbHE)
ZZ502 in Crate (https://flic.kr/p/2kZAbHE)
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Wow, that didn't take long. Merry Christmas seven months early!
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C'mon Bob, we all know what a cardboard box looks like........... :grin:
That was fast. Now the fun part starts.
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Yeah, it's the calm before the storm. I have few things to do, parts to order, and then I'll get into it.
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Kind of what Kerry said, I would not have your self control and would have at least peeked inside the crate!
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Weigh In
So today I am going to get the car weighed. A TATA comes fully loaded with all accessories and I have read that they weigh north of 4000 pounds. I have never verified that.
I have worked hard to reduce the weight of this car. The major reductions are the fiberglass springs, aluminum intake, spare tire removal, and the AC compressor delete.
Here is my estimated list:
Item | Original Weight | New Weight | Savings | Weighed |
Aluminum Intake Manifold | 42 | 17 | 25 | Yes |
Fiberglass Leaf Springs | 63 | 12 | 51 | Yes |
Alum. Water Pump | 10 | 5 | 5 | No |
Mini Starter | 19.4 | 8.8 | 10.6 | Yes |
Blazer Rear Brakes | 60 | 50 | 10 | Yes |
No Spare Tire | 38 | 0 | 38 | Yes |
No Air Canister | 5 | 0 | 5 | Yes |
No jack, wrench | 5 | 0 | 5 | No |
Alum. Master Cyl. | 9.6 | 2.6 | 7 | Yes |
Alum. Prop. Valve | 2 | 0.6 | 1.4 | Yes |
Backdrive Delete | 2 | 0 | 2 | Yes |
Aluminum Front Calipers | 18.6 | 11 | 7.6 | Yes |
Charcoal Canister | 2.2 | 0 | 2.2 | Yes |
Fan, Clutch, Shroud | 10.2 | 8.4 | 1.8 | Yes |
Lightweight Batteries | 42 | 38 | 4 | Yes |
Crossmember | 9.4 | 7 | 2.4 | Yes |
Alum. Driveshaft | 15 | 8 | 7 | Yes |
Transmission+Shifter | 80 | 100 | -20 | No |
AC Compressor Del. | 45 | 0 | 45 | Yes |
Completed Total | | | 210 | |
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Congrats on the new motor Bob! That should make a huge difference on power!
Those PWM fans are really nice. I think that will be one of my next upgrades to my car. I've heard really good things about the C7 and Volt Fans. Does the Sniper ECU have an option for a PWM output? I know that the Terminator and HP/Dominator ECU's have that option.
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Yes, now all i have to do is get that motor in there! I am going to get the W72 on the dyno before I remove it so I know what it does.
The Mark VIII fan has worked well with the PWM controller. I looked at other PWM controllers before I purchased the Auto Cool III. Some guys are using the PWM controller off Corvettes. That takes a little work though. I looked at the Sniper manual and I don't see a PWM output.
The weight was 3780 pounds! See below:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51203972770_80754b9f20_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m1HKbJ)
CAT Certificate (https://flic.kr/p/2m1HKbJ)
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That's great information for the site! I'm curious how much my car weighs.
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I agree with Ryan, this is great information. Before I started my 301 to 461 conversion I thought about how I could weigh the old engine and new engine to compare the two. I couldn't come up with a good way to do it. From what I read the 301 should weigh about 150lbs less than a 400 or 455. Like you I did the math figuring a reduction for aluminum intake, aluminum heads, original catalytic converter (its heavy) and light weight gear reduction starter. I figured the new engine would be close, but nothing like using a real scale. Now that its done I wish I would have measured the car height at each of the four wheel openings to compare the difference. I am using all my original springs. Looking at before and after pictures I can't see a difference. Like Ryan I want to get my car weighed. How much fuel did you have when you weighed?
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There is a gravel yard up the road from my house and one of these days I want to run over there and see if they would let me drive over the scales. I used to work there in High School so maybe they would let me do that quick if it wasn't too busy.
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From spending my share of time behind the wheel of a dump truck, I get ptsd when I think of going through the scales :shock:
Im only about 5 miles from I-95, there is an interchange with a CAT scale. I never thought of going there just because. But its an idea. I know the weight of my pickup from my almost weekly trips to the county landfill.
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Weighing on the CAT scale was easy. I just drove it on the front portion of the platform, pushed a weigh button on the post, and went in and paid $12.50. The fuel tank level was exactly on the 3/4 mark when I weighed. I am going to repeat weigh with the new BBC to see if there is any difference. There were quite a few CAT scales in the Twin Cities area, so I imagine they are everywhere.
In other news, I now have a date on a dyno! I feel it is important I know the RWHP of the W72 because I have always wanted to know and I can compare it with the new engine. The earliest I could get in was June 11th.
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Good Deal, also curious to see what the numbers are.
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This is good info for sure. + I learned something...I didn't even know these CAT scales existed.
A few years ago I weighed my 2011 Challenger on a local municipal scale they have at a yard waste/composting site. That car was something like 4180 with me in it. So, probably around 3900.
I'm curious to know what my LS swapped '81 weighs compared to the 301 and 400.
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Not sure why I have missed the reboot of your thread but glad I found it again!!
The engine swap is going to be exciting to watch!!
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The Weather
It has been really hot here. Usually in Minnesota, you have a few hot days and then it cools down. This has gone on for more than a week. Starting with Thurday, June 3rd the highs have been 88,95,97,91,93,93,94 today, and 98 for tomorrow.
Projects
I have been working like a madman trying to get things done on the house so later this summer I can devote full time to the TA. A lot has been completed in the last month:
- New ceramic towel bar in the master bath shower.
- New gutter and downspout on the south side of the house.
- Complete redo of the wood burning stove chimney.
- Replacement of rotten trim on garage door opening with plastic.
- Upgrade to fish cleaning stand behind house.
Image Hosting
With this post, I am again trying to use Google Photos for image hosting. Let me know if you can not see the photos below.
Intake Manifold
I ordered and took delivery of a reproduction 1969 Corvette 427 ultra low profile intake manifold (ouch!)(see below). I am doing everything to keep the 502 as low as possible so the hood scoop will fit. The ports on the intake are oval while those on the 502 are "roval" which means rectangular with the corners rounded. There is a port mismatch as shown in the photo. The intake has some ridges on the edges of the ports so I will use a die grinder to get those out, but I am not going for a perfect match. A little difference is fine. I am also wondering if I should remove the exhaust crossover block off plate from the gaskets.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rC-EMRsvkAGkuJ2OyqCN3-ByCCTn11G8xkY9jQJFqiFbEQ1b9IPKwBOK-0DPWSoz-AigqoALMnWGyNFPjM-Cy98D08dpUz4jNAIJIiZfiq2vgg0eYF1EBN4CpZfPsvxC0uXS3J-hFQ=w2400)
Intake Top View
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EMhxpap_6FOaPlM2mndXDFsHfZcJQsB6ZWJWJipkhSXCnogMD6hOdbgKYA5C401I5ZInSkm3mMY8bsKGJnb33syVUV89Z14x-ttXlY498Swu6o8KiitMxjH0QXikw0A8kNnlB1vRAw=w2400)
Intake End View
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1zjUdsXQdU1agqE-JbgBiadtr1mMC-nudAFLMv-NqS-R1gs3ymuGYuWWnB70bE9wwB8I1ZjJZdGfE-M6WzgbVJIMWkEsGobmSvL5LqrwaWH1li2WXaVaVmERqc_zEaQdjcDcO7mRNg=w2400)
Intake Ports
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/P0uMsZpB88Ybjrv5FWBkajzDbNPKwp8LYm0TJ7znm2xaNOfvoYHgKXX2WXxl-sLQvqvDHhiaZVjwbscxEYrGVodt73P3d-P_7pTbEwKXoW2-t9UKyDOpzT9tEYrv0h9USqWsxIm7GQ=w2400)
502 Intake Gasket
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Hot Off the Dyno!
I went to DB Performance (highly recommended) today to get the car dynoed to measure the rear wheel horsepower with the mostly stock Pontiac W72 engine. The drive to Rogers, MN was 27 miles.
The owner's father had had a 1979 black and gold with and Olds 403 engine. Before the dyno runs, we each guessed at the RWHP. His guess was 180 and mine was 220. I am happy to report the actual number was 234! See the graph below for full information. The peak torque was 317 at 3500, but the torque was near 300 from 2200 to 4200. The engine was really consistent for all the runs.
After the dyno, session the owner asked me if he could drive it. I said sure and we went for a drive which he thoroughly enjoyed. He had owned and still did a lot of cool cars, especially Mustangs of all vintages.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TmHBpsK_j_k-uS72HozXrC1Dw0Pe16c0m9GubntITGO7vj76sjP7PgiZ2dcNgveExKQ27SDN2mM68SRDl4aT1o-F-5JjeIRHx0GJV1qK6IpoItyVUvn6Vc14cojkyZkZzuGPkmXViA=w2400)
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I bet you'll be close to doubling that RWHP number with the 502!! Are you running the crate motor as is or do you plan to swap the cam out for something more aggressive?
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Bob,
Thanks for sharing the Dyno numbers on your W72. It will be interesting to see what you get out of the 502.
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Good info Bob, I will put this in my file. My engine builder said he is going to run my motor on the dyno when hes finished. Curious to see how they compare.
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Using a standard loss factor of .15, that means the engine has 275 HP. That is well above the stock rating of 220. I do have headers and 2.5 dual exhaust with straight though mufflers.
I may do a cam swap on the 502 later, but for now I am getting it running with the cam in it. It is very conservative and bigger cube engines can easily use bigger cams and still be street friendly. Doubling the RWHP would be pretty awesome, but I think it will be closer to 440 (still great). I told Danny at DB Performance that I would be back with the 502 at some point.
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Intake Porting
I did a mild clean up of the intake ports to better match the head and gasket. Still smaller than the head ports, but I don't think it will matter.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1zjUdsXQdU1agqE-JbgBiadtr1mMC-nudAFLMv-NqS-R1gs3ymuGYuWWnB70bE9wwB8I1ZjJZdGfE-M6WzgbVJIMWkEsGobmSvL5LqrwaWH1li2WXaVaVmERqc_zEaQdjcDcO7mRNg=w2400)
Original Left Intake Ports
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jGuKOOflfFJymJ57v0JrvbqeO1rjEsCIH4AwOqCKcjj3F1Km2ORPn-QkaznlTqUkVUY_MU_fyR7ltZkBJl2y5O0WJIghtYXgYLEePEyOkDnvpms1TMIxsvky9sXNeJZ46QyN5OpkZQ=w2400)
Modified Left Intake Ports
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C8YjCA_porWMD9CK301r3Z4x3fj3Yb4T0THrg2EP1q5-Qrb4q7QTQUJpXnLZYN5cdT5sQOxNH2Vx0Wlus0W16cq-EOdI-dy-N1T1VHGlyBo_MobRgcvFzUF-Sj6KQfmOCmvxfhb87w=w2400)
Original Right Intake Ports
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Zq0ZIEHlnGGtfQsmJb-4GjTQBh1y6eaCkPicGKl6Z0-KBul4yKZ5G_Dz5L2LS-5XfmZQZf8SXRup4s8IeQnzKs6r8CNhust5niShqsg7sIR6x8Or6fPhqgBRIm1HnK6DREn5FVVZwg=w2400)
Modified Right Intake Ports
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It's all these little things that add up to the overall performance boost!!
I like watching stuff like this, and I'm excited to see the after results!!
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Hey Bob,
Last post you had lots of home projects in the works and were in the process of porting the new intake manifold?
Any updates?
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Status Update
My wife and I decided to update our 40 year old house last summer by replacing the carpeting with luxury vinyl planks. I thought it should be easy because because we hired it done. Unfortunately, the project had terrible scope creep and this led to endless work on my part. It started with a total rehab of all the base trim, then opening up a doorway, then redoing many walls and painting, and even led to a complete revamp of all AV systems.
I was about a month in when I realized I had to postpone the work on the new 502 engine installation until 2022. It was probably a good thing as the work and expenses would be spread over two years. It has given me more time to plan this all out.
502 Motor Mounting
I was able to get out in the garage in December and work on the motor mounting. After reviewing various options, I decided with using Energy Suspension mounts and Jegs frame mounts. There needs to be a lot of flexibiliy here as the hood scoop has to fit as well as a host of other things. This system places the mount bolts about an inch above the frame saddle; if need be I can lower them.
The Jegs frame mounts were for something else, they needed to be trimmed to match the the engine mounts (see pics).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IQjFRqTtY0LVAht3QPqr27LgQx6CrPXyHmXkp_quhhaw73VuEqZb58g_M5orDLEsj94qiRyaJr3fwCau5_JHniRPv9QYN_jmg-I29wLyvyg3a6tYl5lDwDaT5E_j6-nN6SOk9xFLUg=w2400)
One Mount Trimmed Side View
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9B4obl7ii5e72-nryoUvtkESTOtlIid0il5guYfGwdr7a79OyITyXdcDdX4mHxBK3K6HbgKdoliEZSikZRL0LtIQqB5iuXEOpT1e1yDfQeDiilZeY983N3L7DL0Hl9Qu1IxGahcT-A=w2400)
One Mount Trimmed End View
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ihRioWIz05ZHZX3TXgsh72YLG-Yf3TjuSN_D3GA06eddU-WVx3xJXPYmlaKLf84OSp-FqBD6DkteiB9_dYj-AXH9uDFEUb8xGUqUUw_9i9BeJP1GoSBSXs_rWyqh0LP980lVoq1_pA=w2400)
Frame Mounts Painted
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/S-SJDOKVYWlsp1PS7ETsBbyjVFBrYwKASwAjK8qpsTfgyUgciN1KZyQDayM7sv_PhRfpZqjsRNXKGum4S48yQuLz0FAFsxr6ouRukaemDkfEVZFmp4iqXMV9F6_tTkU6oOWRdKBUcQ=w2400)
Frame and Motor Mounts Together
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Looking good. A BBC can make stupid torque when cammed properly. If you're considering upgrading the cam prior to installing the engine would be your best opportunity.
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Bob,
Great to hear you are working on your car again. Getting the shaker height right might be a challenge
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The ZZ502 makes over 500 ft-lbs of torque from 2500 rpm to 5300 rpm peaking at 580 (3600 rpm). This is a street car so I am staying with the street cam it comes with to start.
I have a list of measurements that I will be taking to make the new engine and drive train fit. One of them is the height of the existing intake Sniper mounting surface. This is one reason I purchased the 1969 427 Corvette intake, it is the ultimate low profile BBC intake (good for 390 HP on the 427 Vette).
One of the other critical measurements is the distance of the back Carb/Sniper mounting holes on the intake to the firewall. I need to keep the hood scoop in the same fore/aft position so it will fit through the hole in the hood.
Image Hosting
I have started to use Google Photos for image hosting. There have been glitches with this, so bear with me. I may have to go back to Flickr and delete my old photos.
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Been catching up on your thread. Unfortunately, the images aren't coming through for me. Sounds like a great build and I'll keep following it. You can try using this link to embed google images. I find it works pretty well, but its a bit tedious to use. You just click on your google photo, select the share icon, choose create a link, select create a link, copy and paste the google link generated into the online tool and then select GENERATE. It creates two paths. Select the Direct Image Link and use the image icon above to place it in your post.
https://www.labnol.org/embed/google/photos/
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Thanks so much for the tip. The images were showing up for me on the laptop, but not on the IPad. I have updated the whole page 2 with your method and they all seem to be working on all platforms.
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Battery Maintainer
The Noco Genius battery maintainer for the Trans Am failed over the winter. The result was two completely dead AGM batteries. The Noco began to act strange last summer. It was only a 1.1 amp charger and I felt I needed something bigger for the two AGM’s. So I ordered a Battery Tender 3 amp charger/maintainer to replace it.
The battery tender was much larger than the Genius charger and wouldn’t fit on the existing bracket. So I had to pull the nose cone and fabricate a new bracket. I had the nose cone off in 30 minutes. Putting it on was another story because I wanted perfect alignment with the nose cone and the fenders. See installation pictures below:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/j6xGKEureAL8NB55gHY-YkC9hcamUr3gkRRMiSHW9_HtFMDEPRT9PGiFd6s24qNH288shfvp8HsHjTGd6otwoymXQM5r01rngYFI906mA42KpocGjxiM_6HD7o0UkMp0tB3TvpBI4w=w2400)
Battery Maintainer Comparison
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZELNlepckyoIFyQjuPH8ikKsBqxpyh3OGb9Ra9Wfto4Smz8XNMeil-3VSVCxhUB2kK1AY5Zxl77IbTigskWxmtRSklK-RMWM9Wp8MTpVzuN95SCLH3snctpiu0CthAWLloa5EYx4Gg=w2400)
Installed on Bracket
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M7I-xnxh_5jInbQCeYtlVjRPmFF9WyI6NCjMrcR_lFDirlaL9SxjOMb5Tq7xnrgsOjD_rOKxAdIuHTZHWDTPFpFpW1jt8Rn67O0LKkzTgOwyYws2J2SGfp2JB9t6lVGdNNXfOZYoAw=w2400)
Front Large View
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/O28fLb2GSKqzqv07tMoyOoTCZHvt8fbfz69G0NjwE-s8uqPh_g7ZPsQPVzQ-Vm3xftiQX2Nd3KZk3oYjC1r0QdobIePqIRNxc6EtM1krJfqEKOACUha4hoq1XgR6RmMegQMk4J-rVA=w2400)
Maintainer From Top View
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That's a great upgrade. I used to sell those and never had any issues with them. They seem to make a good product.
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Nice job on fabricating the bracket. Ouch on loosing two AGM batteries!
I am a big fan of battery tender products. I have six of the larger/ older battery tender plus models. Use them on four of my motorcycles, my TA and generator. I have had only one of them fail and it was probably the oldest. They come with a ten year warranty as long as you keep the receipt. Sent in the bad tender with one of the less than ten year old receipts and they sent me a brand new tender.
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Good to hear about the Battery Tender reliability. The only down side is they will not charge a completely dead battery (in the instructions).
I was able to use an old standard charger on the 2 amp setting on the AGM's to get some charge into them (1.5 days). Then I hooked up the Battery Tender and it went through its 4 step process overnight to full charge! I then started the car, ran it, and now the batteries seem to be fine.
Completely discharging any battery is really hard on them. I have heard this is even more true with AGM's. After this experience, I bought another smart charger for my garage that will work on even dead batteries.
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I have a battery tender on my motorcycle and love it. My brother has the larger model with hook ups for multiples. I have been wanting to get one for my T/A but I usually start it up at least once a month and dont typically have any problems. At one time they were made in FLA, we would travel by their HQ on a regular basis when travelling the area during bike week.
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5 Battery Tender Plus models here. So far, no failures after 6 years.
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Brake Lights
The brake lights went out in 2018 and I had to install a new turn signal switch. This lasted until late last summer when it went out again. The switch does not pass the brake light signal through it. The signal goes up the column on pin 1 and returns on pins 2 and 3.
I took the column apart to investigate why the switch was not working. I fiddled with it for about a half an hour and I was able to get the switch to work for about two minutes, but then it went out again. I put pressure on various parts of the switch, pulled the flashers off and on, and turn the turn signals off and on. I had an old one upstairs in the garage, so I took it apart and all it is is a couple of sliding contact plates. It is hard to figure out where this would go wrong on passing the brake light signal, but it did.
I ordered a new switch and installed it which is a tedious and routine procedure. However, there was a surprise for me lurking, because when I got the steering column back together the wheel was not pointing up! In theory, this should never happen because the wheel position is controlled by the lock ring which can only go on one way.
I took it apart several times trying to fix it and it would not go back together right. I finally ground off one of the teeth on the lock ring and put it back together and it is now right.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g6NIK4QFFQbKICUMl3BNL5752Ly6dp1jRYSRE9ORSpV5QXUGIpSmou7d4rJjjV6fSQNcgky0ejO9V0OXrzj-WHAcVndbIbp6YHwU9Vb0LzQNN9v-FbS_btR0FFPHYAnvmCAhRT7YjQ=w2400)
New Turn Signal Switch Installed
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/34C3Z6Ay4r9AVN-n3EaUbd4Orf-c81d5XKQIfj_NkytY2fA1bFcD4bYBC6Tg3_jIWhv7_P7_iPgtmdAZ-TMkBNR40byEA5WFMReSs4jGsPTMcaOPQRB9xqSDjsQZ6SIzUWb0LfLD6w=w2400)
Installing Lock Ring Retainer
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I hate columns!
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Yes, between that job and painting the laundry room, I am having a lot of fun now!
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Yes, between that job and painting the laundry room, I am having a lot of fun now!
Ahhh. Living the dream! :lol:
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Splitter Pipes
My driver side splitter fell off last fall. I have been using band clamps to attach the splitters. So, I purchased a new set of splitters from Summit Racing for $106!
The new splitters were different than those that I purchased in 2016. Same part number. The tip length from top to bottom was a full inch shorter than the old ones. Also, the flared opening for the tail pipe was smaller in diameter and would not go over the tail pipe. The old ones fit over the tail pipe easily (probably why the driver side fell off).
I really like the clamp on splitters as it gives me some adjustability for positioning them. This is especially true if something in the exhaust system changes. In addition to that, the clamp on splitters and the two piece tail pipes make it a breeze to remove the entire tail pipe assembly if needed for maintenance.
I cut a slit in the top of the flared end of one of the new splitters and used my tail pipe expansion tool to make it larger so it would fit over the tail pipe. I installed it with a band clamp and drilled two 1/8 inch holes in the clamp so that I could pin the tail pipe and splitter. The splitter material was really hard to drill through. Then I used aluminum pop rivets to make sure that it could not come apart.
I also pinned the right side with the same method. The difference in height between old and new came to my advantage because the right side tail pipe came out higher so I just left the longer splitter there and the distance from the fender lip matched the other side perfectly.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vBUilcxD5NqWm8IaW_3204k2Kjl4J1eVRSfe8SfI0Uo3QoSq0ayki3IwbgzCvCzXyng83PwNmOcOBOBKux_dQznx3LVmyuN4l87enEwmF-PCxuDLgoUTukVQd7nAqeR3Hvr9vML75w=w2400)
New Splitter
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IR_AmYRzu9ygqyQ4oV82PXfrxDcxBlxT4JSKKq_sPeRMWG7rIf5zQXiMFIJn0NzpHuXZG8XO5N9WI4OdRjovTdeXZPfQ4hJ4GPxVwZW4lZpBxpi-krZjpCyCyR1Us3j8tagpSMP-eA=w2400)
New Left Side Installed
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BV_eG8AqEV9gaJDBWFKYyFg-YveOs7uaE_mpG7Edco5OjDbSLy98VtRltkFLcFX_8cVIgtz5WCJh65ZtCAE1dMR3KzcJP20pCPKUF4bXVfpACAXa5XjFIXQ7z0N02d8c-CcpdPiDpw=w2400)
New Splitter Side View
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/DEXh4hR_o5mdT2i19xYoXyb1lmi6NPxPo3cleVnSdLSaRvjocz6Z1h_FHyy6ULhnV4CRJbJDS2BgOJxM9r4ZGi2i-DMJOn5ZIJVCrDV4uI7c10LQXWCmPf81iZk9usNT31RdduAJ9g=w2400)
Right Side Pinned
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Nice job on the splitter installation, giving you adjustability and security from not falling off again. It seems like many after market parts are not built to the same tolerance as OEM.
When is your new monster motor going in?
Last year I started to install a 1974 Super Duty exhaust system on my car, but the over axel pipes to the muffler were not bent correctly and the tail pipes were way off. I still had my original one piece split tail pipes, they were in great shape so I used them. I took my car to a real muffler shop, they did a nice job fabricating the over axel pipes to the muffler. They also tack welded the pipes going into the muffler and from the muffler to the tail pipes so nothing would slip or shift. The guy doing the work had lots of experience working on firebirds decades ago and said often the repo one piece pipes fit poorly and took lots of work to make them fit. He said I was lucky to have original one piece pipes in very good condition.
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Looks good! I need to install my tips as well. It's been a few years since I "finished " my car and they ate still not on it. I have the Pypes transverse exhaust on my car and they sell an adapter which is supposed to set the correct angle and then the tips (all came from Pypes). The problem is you have to shorten the exhaust and then fit the adapter and then the tips. It appears to be a pain so I haven't tackled it.
Your setup looks good and serviceable. Nice job.
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When is your new monster motor going in?
This summer. I wanted to get the car drivable for the period where I'm waiting to put the motor in.
Things are just bananas lately. Selling the condo was and continues to be a lot of work. I also have the big plumbing leak in the house as well as other home maintenance items going on.
The good news is the splitter project was the last of the car maintenance items to get it ready to go. Some of the next items are:
1. Assembling the engine hoist.
2. Painting the intake manifold.
3. Purchasing an engine stand.
4. Painting the new Milodon pan.
5. Installing the intake manifold.
6. Installing the new oil pump pick up.
7. Installing the new pan.
8. Pulling the Pontiac motor.
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Sounds good Bob, and I like the splitters. I am willing to bet that you will have your motor in and car running before I hear back from my shop!!
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I don't know about that. Right now, I can't get out of the laundry room.
We have company coming on June 10th and my wife wants the downstairs all tidied up by then. Honey do comes before car in the order of things!
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Home Water Leak
I know this is an auto website, but the house has had of leak in the downstairs for the past five or six years. This leak has occupied a lot of my time. It started as a small amount of water would come out in the downstairs every time it rained. I thought it was a roof leak, but I sealed up the roof and even got a new roof at one point and there was no difference. Then I thought it was a drainage leak against the foundation but new grading and gutters also made no difference. Finally, I discovered that the drain line from the kitchen sink was leaking.
Unfortunately, this drain line was inside walls and not easy to get to. I had to tear off the drywall downstairs and the siding on the house to get access to the line. What I found was the 40 year old ABS drain line was brittle as an eggshell and cracked in two different places (almost completely off near the downstairs ceiling).
At any rate, some elbows and about 12 feet of new pipe and it is now all fixed. Gave me a chance to brush up on my ABS gluing skills. I wouldn’t want you guys to think all I do in my spare time is sit around and eat bon-bons.
New Equipment
Last year I bought a Power Torque engine hoist from O'Reilly so I assembled that. I also needed an engine stand and I had picked one out at Harbor Freight but when I went to order it, it was out of stock. I ended up finding a similar one at Jegs (Jegs brand) for a little more money. I also assembled that, but the turn handle was really loose, so I modified it and made a handle retainer. Even though the engine stand and engine hoist came from two totally different suppliers and were different brands, they had exactly the same design and had the same fasteners almost like they were made by the same company.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sPUpmd8inHc12FCTtLtWGdvJLz8z3mORN81PoTnGtLRp5DCuCgnbi0s6uisBhd2lpc_-ny77oXV6eTdLPqk4ZvJSIzhFmCI9DasStW5B5z0-fgKrBZxg75OyITRzuOC4dBc3TI5EkA=w2400)
Cracked Drainage Pipe
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zQzF-rmd4sDtde-879O_VTMcuwFj1vWLli64Sif1aaTYl1uytY0sJfo7iZpZiFaCD92bovKOJOQvGZMTPE6C3VCrfzoIKVnbLFi9xeBl9wTAfUhXMM7aOapCyP0yJHZjxR9DcpiKOg=w2400)
Exterior Pipe Access
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pFN1RIqMGjDP2VxH_lR1vGh4k_N5t8bpBZNwrwhwkbyBrxorpPneRfeuZC8pf6FJHeilkgj9nwcGOrkfgABRc1XY6MjnEVYwYdZvWIeo1ul3-ayMD2FFyAND0piAFmjSFWNhp8Gw-A=w2400)
Repaired Ready to Rock
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/uhtigFAj6IC9nnuOUixr4UKQeAFRmkAjC0Rltzd9RgkfzjI0DOW1sUAiKo8Sj5u0Uz53nx6DyvOYYTWVODAwc4RPoBBl1NpIocyoA4miFFMPC3SMWUobx3U4mbSieFrurZ1UgWNnOg=w2400)
Drywall Installed
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zTa9C6RlZp4JJ6vi-RCd7QbIsrjGYt8UbNCY52Wq2a8xa0xIh2eOiI60P431uxsREkq80oJpSXC4hxHmlAt6cxbcqjB2L_2B9LLTqxWsgi8Li3HIoEsJ8EkIDY1fmoPVgCLn9zYhQg=w2400)
Engine Hoist Assembled
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2xYH0_Gmhwt9174V5DWfZn2QPBuu0t1my99swWx1nkNcfgf4Jbi07676iaTGv_EkfJJaPD0p4_11VwthMHv3Ik5_I42O-uvK2TJtSp2TyquOc5AlwiN-5V0Nsyl5DyIU5Gp4WLMUzw=w2400)
Engine Stand Assembled
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/riMcW-KuLksMOqWKBLaYlYMPMNcwb_mUIDiPaDxaev4ApjYzo-f-HVxMIDRHJDuL_FnGwFWwclKRrOs9Eogt5C1L48ykyCO_tte-47k2XuwKmu1BBSQCx1PJuqrclM9Y6b-7enZySw=w2400)
Engine Stand Handle Retainer
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Bob, It seems with a house there is always something that needs attention. Glad you are finding time to work on your engine upgrade. Looking forward to watching your progress.
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Engine equipment looks very nice.
Plumbing leaks are nothing less than a major PIA. A couple of years ago we had a spot show up in the living room ceiling. The drywall seem had been 'popped' for awhile but I just figured that was from movement. When the water started to drip figured it was time to investigate, LOL. Happened to be right under the tub drain and sprung the leak by coincidence right after my grandson took a bath. I figured the drain popped loose so proceeded tearing the ceiling apart. After removing half the ceiling and finding water but no leak I traced it back to the supply line to the sink!! Copper line had a pin hole leak. I could have fixed it within 5 minutes and no mess. If my grandson had not just taken a bath I would have never thought to look at the drain.
Not to sound negative, and only constructive criticism, but you will do yourself a big favor if you take out all of those small pieces of drywall and replace it with one. One joint to deal with is much better than a dozen.
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One joint to deal with is much better than a dozen.
Report
This.
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That is a a good point, but I did not have a 4 x 8 sheet available. But I did have a lot of extra pieces upstairs in the garage, so
I tried to use them up. It is almost done now, sanded out, just a few of small divots to fill and it will be ready for paint.
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Sounds great. I was just trying to save you some time so you can get back to your new motor, LOL.
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Around here, ABS is only used in mobile homes. I haven't used anything but PVC in 25 years in a house. Different areas/different codes.
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I contemplated using PVC instead of ABS. But I did some reading on the subject and there was no clear winner. In fact, some articles said that ABS was more durable. Because the house was built with ABS, I just I decided to stay with that.
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I've been trying to make progress but there have been a lot of obstacles. The first is we have been invaded by wasps (see pic). They absolutely love my boat and made several small nests under the boat cover. I knocked all those down and looked for other nests, but didn't find any. I took the boat to the lake and they were even dive bombing boat in the middle of the lake!
I uncrated the engine and it looks great (see picture). My original plan was to paint the engine GM corporate blue but after seeing the engine, black and silver, I thought it might be best to leave it at that color. I had already painted the intake manifold corporate blue so I repainted it aluminum (see photo).
The city has decided to redo our street and for two weeks we have had a dusty gravel road. The cars and everything else have been coated in dust. Fortunately, the engine is bagged and I am not about to take it out of the bag until the street is redone and there is no more dust.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EzMcrn0-vn_QbnXOE_AXUAQaJvrU82ACa517Pic32xGn5uWU6BOr6-3RPqQ0rxSiW98swtqYfEtfO-yDaM4iRO7RhRLVW4U5nZ7BsaHwI2aQkqlOR4Y7oFY4VxwY0-9I2hw2mYDMWA=w2400)
Sample Wasp
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/b5UBcsKrL7S0k8X_6xU8p1CVQnQCnAIA8wbH_0tEqNjcPPtN4x5QsJDJHIOvIJKzzc-HVbZaH2zRnA0_tUYvGtKBdQiOXKGE6Sy5Ey56jGezfhFA8ytoMlfyanXN-6Vd8wNvyHcKrg=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YNTFwQEcFUn6DKQ2Yr6i3O3HWVtFl2mIZgZIdQP41JqlAbUedHadDrJo0x-UmFOZjoidXDRebORooir_H3lIvMzs39VQ55S-nN7gas7doCXp3K2qNtlRUdoZOb72IPMdrQTY7XSCHg=w2400)
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You have far more self-control than I do, I would have uncrated the engine on the first day.
The motor looks great, in my mind it looks too good to repaint!
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Bob, my street is dust free, pack the motor up and send it to me. I will drop it in the tenth and let you know how it runs. When my motor is finished I will ship it back :grin: Might not be for a few years though :???:
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Engine On Stand
I finally had a day where I made it out to the garage before company came. The task was to get the engine up on the engine stand. It turned out it was easier said than done because the engine was mounted on a pallet and I could not get the engine hoist near the engine because of the pallet.
I ended up cutting away part of the pallet and was able to get a floor jack under it to raise it up. I also had to use engine hoist in the fully extended position, which is 500 pounds, and this made me a little uncomfortable but it worked.
See the attached photos of the process.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EpxWp7soHJehefjfYg5SroZ07ibMtxsW4Jh7HlZwjgsBfiAwmbzztvEh6qiYJvuZ65PyDCy9OSh9ttTBx2F2_eeEoOI5y6lnY9XqV0-kUwpdtJeNdZFXmy_vS0zRmK0vTDIxRzFDKA=w2400)
Hub Attached
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aTLBljcCPajkrKIATzd95PrYYlN1ZcmZtMAfMe37nqzdQt9u7HtQfTCrjEt4BdSiWE9KRNFbhylPGx07fbdNiW2VgdSoKad9bovNOSgQodCyk0_3cXx5eTn4Y6lu4472e2t2Qdc87A=w2400)
Engine Off Crate
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k4XC2be2VOt5wBgJ5QN8gx1fClu_7leswFI0mXuf1GUotx903LVgeerEfAv0aOP5cjiX_bNXJCix186fIu0Mg8QS_mKcSzUYAZJKsAIwVtNy6afLvl2fwzuC3xYPj6-IdpYmmeSIeA=w2400)
Transferring to Stand
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zTNTT6Y9XCJAUTZtZ3Pi3ksGXv57eNyDYFWMOSgR1I_K0k39xj3jc69KAJTtsbcJ1J3x-O0iP70cwZ9RqaK710I8UQFRwLdIRikxHGxvfdE7aRi0PHIqEtRKCkD0ylruBhecYxb9Tg=w2400)
Engine On Stand
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That's almost too pretty to hide under a hood!
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Water Pump
I came out one morning and noticed a couple of drops of coolant on the top of the water pump. Upon further inspection, the area on top of the pump shaft was discolored (see picture). As much as I wanted to ignore this, I need to keep the Pontiac engine running and in good condition. I started to disassemble and the inside of the water pump pulley was filled with gunk (see picture) so maybe this had leaked for awhile.
After the old pump was off, I observed rust on the inside of the housing (aluminum), the divider plate, and the sleeves. The bearing in the old pump was definitely bad. Fortunately, the housing was in good shape with no heat stress cracking. The right sleeve came out ok, but the left one was stuck in the housing and took some effort to remove. There is a gasket in the front of the sleeves and these had deteriorated to complete goo.
I ordered a new Milodon aluminum high flow water pump, a stainless steel divider plate, and stainless steel sleeves (see photo). I made a couple of 5/16 stainless steel pins by cutting off bolts (see photo) and used these to mount everything together. The torque spec was 15 ft.-lbs. but after a couple of heat/cool cycles, i had to retorque.
I made the rookie mistake of throwing in the coolant and just starting in the engine without thinking about it. Of course, it hot pocketed on me and spit a bunch of new coolant out onto the floor. After this, I was much more careful, added coolant and just brought up the engine to temperature, shut it off, cooled and repeated. I could tell this was working as it was drawing the coolant into the engine.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dlhIWrFRSqHivAVhEQzaMxVE2Wrh_5VrDugKk-_fN4C7LIkp0Vjom3AIZ0tcUdfT2G9wnP-fHfenA52co_A67bb6guixFrsN7b_ZqrTRO--Uu7TbdWJ68kD16M4GBzBHDd3nkeopQA=w2400)
Old Water Pump Stained
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/X6Uxw1mf-UWeiRgy1Z1mwKnfy2EoO9fTjfL3AwVyjkfoWCpldM20oc5ivQlVSZ-UQ6XOORKDFSOq4VBb0JPTCIXA03wsLCrHZYuQb2u2vvenZpZ8VNHygu-xCifLNWLdVJRJH6xC4g=w2400)
Gunk On Pulley
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZCrAHpqAfw9fUki0Pp1yYLzotlPoCl6NAbUHdX9Q6JBMJ2Bfg-p3Jdbw7j9jiZrO7bLW5loeEbFE0zokezL9Cja2etJ0qOLIJvfk943tJCLMaeNpI33MPOcNW-y6yXL1QfentX0Ajg=w2400)
New SS Divider and Sleeves
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VY5zBE5_K9-HtOSwXBmUunFLpyaexo0LbT2qcavkXk30rLDp7dfdmCCxfi2rsfru0imfsMYTNUbiqxtP02uOk4uG6PRlioKW7e3hMEAHsLlBT7gJvEJMM3l6YFTwtuO1Kg24R5F-A=w2400)
Small Amount of Sealant On Surfaces
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/VK_Avpv60hYwOIfavMwdIox1ttScPhoW5eBPSlcfzDDU4XYA2iFrnJe0FO4NnAqlWjVcEaSTCwRfMQSl31omaTGBAZ-8NiWTBSXDYYEe0hSbxSHrX7zt3ZFNf7pkkz3m4nv9ColPTA=w2400)
Fitting New Pump with Pins For Holding
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/71GOgOqWvYagxB0FxkwdKkn-3ZAMdTseB4S04Ewsi9PjBDg3zteG-yGq3i9-KMEYEiqhOpwFqD8-fWx4KwSYC6heaHWb2C9aUzsYtVFKDTgMfw1GpHsHUhlXUQPgYDzeTi0QIyTOMA=w2400)
Cleaned and Painted Pulley
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UwOFFzA6oS5qn93alt0GL-NNql8XbVABYT1T9eaeZ4YJYhYcRdHiDlJueRezOb1Ktuedixlu27-3FKASAfj-3aQvWBL44xamUWikVERBSPvulUhAh6LMRuUtHacv279zcZDP8bZkPw=w2400)
Completed Install
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A little late for you now but for what it’s worth for any others, when I had my engine out back in the spring I had to replace a leaky water pump as well (among other things). When looking for a new pump I found Amazon sells a GMB brand pump for about half the cost of a Milodon pump and they appear to be identical parts. The milodon appears to be stamped GMB too. Both feature a cast impeller as well.
Also, you may have done this, but my block ended up bone dry inside due to the work I did. I left the heads on and pistons and rods in but I removed the timing cover and pulled the crank to replace the main and rod bearings. Needless to say from being flipped upside down and right side up several times I dumped every ounce of coolant out of it (and I couldn’t believe how much kept coming out lol). Once back together and reinstalled in the car, I popped off the heater hose off the fitting on the back of the head, tucked a rag under and filled the radiator till coolant came out of the fitting. I’ve done it that way every time I’ve pulled the engine and it seems to do a great job of pushing most if not all of the air out. Whether it was air from the heater core and hoses or a little air in the block, there wasn’t much and I didn’t have to adjust the fluid level much.
Just an FYI if you’ve never tried that.
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I didn’t know what to get for a pump, I have heard FlowCooler was a good one, but I looked at Summit and they didn’t have one and their other choices weren’t that great. Then I found this Miliodon which was high flow, aluminum, and a name brand.
Wow, I could have saved myself 60 plus dollars on the pump! They look identical to me.
That is a good tip on filling the block. I never thought of that but I will use it the next time I need to do engine work. It just doesn't flow from the radiator to the block unless you do some work probably because the thermostat is closed.
Thanks.
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I didn’t know what to get for a pump, I have heard FlowCooler was a good one, but I looked at Summit and they didn’t have one and their other choices weren’t that great. Then I found this Miliodon which was high flow, aluminum, and a name brand.
Wow, I could have saved myself 60 plus dollars on the pump! They look identical to me.
That is a good tip on filling the block. I never thought of that but I will use it the next time I need to do engine work. It just doesn't flow from the radiator to the block unless you do some work probably because the thermostat is closed.
Thanks.
It actually does flow from the bottom coolant hose from the radiator into the block. I think that’s why it does so well expelling a good amount of air. I’ve always done so as a last step before firing the engine with t-stat in place.
For what it’s worth, I had no idea what pump I wanted either. Just ran across that GMB and tried it. Didn’t even know it was aluminum until I received it and discovered the comparison to the milodon
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Engine Painting
I went back-and-forth about what color to paint the engine. First I thought a black and silver color scheme would be good and match how the engine came. But after thinking about this, I decided to go back to the old standard of GM corporate blue. I am really used to this after having a car all these years and all black and silver would be boring.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cm1ZFVAf4hE7yxJWq4mruIg3tAP7mPFkfIw2TsOHozJTpZcgEeHshMtpTrk4v99Y1wZMz9CPMhmH_e6ScJcWSmPJm2CIFkSXeqnUDX4MEfYmupeX5PBtkUdCAQEGw-8-fWwKnY7ULQ=w2400)
Ready To Paint 1
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/x63v6gtA3hy16R8cIoSAquy-HPHJItQoJhprDlsaXr35Ft--4kFYhANbSV8elx8Ytb0wCx0aEoaINbR0WiCV8jPf0Z7F05yhkXOcDfjy9MS8TGDqcBOP1AeojUHDJ1DHQiliKc_qnA=w2400)
Ready To Paint 2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rVjLS9nLDbBiUkVYUdu0sMzfkmGBUqqiDP_H6qLrvYh-dzbeI_LJYWdi0y7YcEGhW9wE0cRjSyKQGJ7sl14J85f_lT8F6OgxQQ5J1bye22wq_YJS16WqrH59kwjlEzy6RLmJMFMJhg=w2400)
Painted 1
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aYy8GngO2Iq2_fH5rNxPPryii-Sx-V3N8uooeIDPVknVJ8OovRnG_m432BtU618t5ZWrYP_Jr7QKbF0CKzOW8G_79_6gbVgHUsTo4AInyws-McNHgIr5PzU_hiSSXTkHhl3nSmkIow=w2400)
Painted 2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/f3n0A6RwjrcwrxFhfcwyoHYyyGP640RUvS7miCPhEe5eo6mVlFucOyoAAv-Am2yVRGiepIvoRan5MxIE-kfUFDjwpYevYpcfRv3OjdTZLh-0kRsx8T21u-CCZW1WFV2wFDUxy4mABQ=w2400)
Unmasked with Valve Covers
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Bob, I am not sure there is any right or wrong answer for color. The blue looks great.
Now you need someone to make an aluminum plague to put over the Chevrolet lettering on the rocker arm covers. Then next summer when you have the hood open at a car show; someone walks up, looks at the engine and says “ I didn’t know Pontiac made a 502”.
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Which GMB water pump (400ci)? Standard Volume 1301280AL or High Volume/Pressure 1301280P.
Thanks!
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I don't know if I would fool anyone anyhow as the heads have little bowties in each end (see pic). Still, I am happy with the corporate blue for the look of a Pontiac instead of the Chevy red or orange.
I used a Milodon pump that was listed as high volume so it would probably be equivalent to the latter one. Here is the Amazon link:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000COO208/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000COO208/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
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Intake Manifold Install
Because I was concerned about the hood scoop fitting under the hood, I purchased the lowest profile intake manifold made for a big block Chevy. This intake was used on the 1969 Corvette 427, 435 hp engines. It is a new reproduction of that manifold.
I trial fit the new manifold. The outer bolt tabs hit the valve covers and gaskets (see photos). This was not a problem as there was generous material on the tabs and so I just ground off the ends (see photo). Also the outer bolt holes were off center especially on one side so I use the die grinder to enlarge them toward the engine center.
The intake bolts for a 502 are a quarter inch longer (1.5 inches) than the standard big block Chevy. I measured the hole depth on all blind holes to ensure the bolts would not bottom out. Eight of the head bolt holes are blind and the other eight are open or semi open. The ARP 435-2102 was a nice intake bolt set with stainless steel 12 point bolts and washers.
I had some 3/8 x 16 x 1” stainless hex studs (see alignment photos) and used these on the outer holes to hold the intake gaskets in place while I did the installation. Chevys have a gap at the each end of the intake manifold (see pics). I applied Permatex ultra black with a thick bead to each end before setting the intake. The threads on the bolts in the open holes were covered with thread sealant and those for the blind holes were covered in anti-seize.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TakJc_KNsCsQ56tI4mUy00RA068SSsXgz3n9SwXO7XSzT1SZzOwD_QUVOFb_7LG-L1JGXblvQWU4MJQtOycSKjCFfi2UVvXcb_MzAnpkHP11CHbPhyu-F0ie5Ogi2_PnAJwVzUDL8A=w2400)
Manifold Valve Cover Interference and Bolt Mis-Alignment #1
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Aix1DgQnkg6k4oJEdkHj5fUxW_agg1f4aEvIqbNA93IfJDey4dX91BpNz108icJyKf3aQ5coa2GI1t3XUmPidppe1Fkat54SpGAcqKGlmwH6W2FYf5nweolBkDdEMd-82ONDq-f0Ig=w2400)
Manifold Valve Cover Interference and Bolt Mis-Alignment #2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AMxlcNdlxoBymSKQCgN3YtOocWLeYdIEFVuxOJUDV7WXIKpyrI_pXdjw2AeR8-OK_8JmXr_iHqhRELtlhuPnZnKwjc5rZyHnjY64jBXEGMmcoI1QCp9egCi44qIt20waSVNZpBCdzA=w2400)
Ear Material Removed
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MdSC7MsqbUs1skkLrhfF72OIsw4d12q4yZLwCMAZFPmwZ99-ST_H-yTZgnCsgD3ahi8dYKdG7qe3Pge5rpjmtIMi2Susp0U0s9Wh6fj6u5J9W56e_S311xYO6eg8P-oYUQzz8fGVTw=w2400)
Rear Gap
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qrqkP2j0xYfQrJU9_uaxZfVb0tWZEaqktJGngreFnIpSKhGfPMp9e-7vdsxA42ux5bD5dgVMj-Ar1JpZyue6s_gnNhIO_Z6jxv2REZFOILrVgakUmcHXfGw1z-Huoy5a5CJ5MzB08A=w2400)
Front Gap
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nuT6ltiSXMtOX5lSFNk0KJ5-MuEa6AA_TdxnQWyg3KFFdaOx2zShUyW4NhHyqPoW-HTUXyHzpbbbC3zBk3KnS5QU2N3Cbyv9Hau8_9iNNcwmKGqNQ-K8bm1KuwYJsmxxtoUNIugJFg=w2400)
Installed Side View
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/i8vOSkibUr7koidNHkbPxMlHA4BJJlK_nWZr00BTZD3gcri7Pa6NdVXARU3B8V172WVU2AkITN6MPIF6YsQ_Kcf4eFsOtcWuLtUKwhJBAEgse1foiN4dD0C7Wk21I7BC_63zufYz6A=w2400)
Installed End View
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Oil Pan Part 1
The 502 motor came with a truck oil pan that was not only deep in the sump area, but deep all along its length. This pan would not fit in most cars, so I ordered a Milodon 30975 pan for my application. Milodon described this as an extra low-profile pan that would also fit big blocks in 55 to 57 Chevys (see photo of description).
The pan was listed as a 6 quart pan plus capacity for filter. I test filled the pan with 6 quarts of water to see what the level would be (see photo).
The 502 also came with a windage tray that was anchored off of studs on the center main cap bolts (see photos). Ultimately, I ended up not using this tray as it would not fit with the new set up. I was also concerned that the main cap studs would not allow the oil pan to fit. A quick measurement revealed that the new pan would clear the studs by about a quarter inch. Hats off to Milodon for this design.
Because the new pan was shallower, I had to order a new oil pump pick up that was also shorter. However, I could not install this pick up in the old pump because the old pick up was welded to the pump. So at this point I had to stop and order a new oil pump for the new pick up.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Q6Pa4iiyQLzYFwifFRlLufkCfeGR460k_MLTf8ReexNhtTLazwyZvanUuINnnBqAjmWqzy-7A5M-NtUlkapLNvDTtrHCKhwNOdomQMvj5zxezy0Eyat9zZu3uJyY-N9xPc9IHXH0pg=w2400)
New Milodon Pan
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0oeAfgKEJQewuVdTvVViIBUkCjWKnT3RYHP0K7Ivx7rPJT_tAmVg6__prrABOmYNNO75wEATEFfxjdsE9s0YEDTb2VZgQOYIZ4bwadXW0NEBndoAhPA3YAcfTbh0Bzy2b9_lFqrl0Q=w2400)
Pan Box Label
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/liHjmGM0aZEUQ63zteuDka4x0SP2uepWdm-fNG-MmpptdVbP1UkYrD6_JkwvOrYFGVD6rJ3SGamCiv6oPkGe9n8jlRbApFRn550MRsnmpYUEhODYmHcc8P06yHYHXlFRDY077ohoEQ=w2400)
6 Quarts in Pan
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SlqkAMVEn8IUxq7_TBIJr_8GXtkObsOThr6ZgiTGbOVPjUl_yaK9nt9hRIMHo8JCN_IzQ_6Z-K8imFgDzooXVHj0HSj9__SR_KlhrnJzaoK7lW87VjxdZ0Y4MBhUew5t43modv2Dnw=w2400)
Original Pump and Windage Tray
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/H6NuoYEyhRBkLJRSXMRkXVb_nFrale12KyQheK-ota_ke_2VpkV6Krrcozds3f32jbeSjxiCglovrrKkZtaXpQ19U1wH0MOR0LF1AyMIslZ3R4O3LvY2eoc9JvHv36vj18-Uc_keKg=w2400)
Main Cap Studs
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7EClLc7KILG202vCHHTku7Zojl5_RtusCrfqYInVwrFZxPTnCjgT911cY-UGVukJ-y6VNS3VMtWdd-yiXWdFl5N4WSAso2v7R2vd2r0h-EyCYSeN2I5RpcgUnVwCrV_ZFqc-QMQf4Q=w2400)
Pan Comparison
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0leKo-T6DCK2hECUYaUmZsbRR9FImutyEIP4-YoXG7PASGLSpqcAKD_wUjHEFrtjJY-Vj6ACMRHKw0anNS2tzFFoyYZXLflp2uYATplNqlF3hjgoQ2CkouJPZDKj7cHVzNC_o3b-Mw=w2400)
Old and New Pickup
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Funny, on the surface changing to a different oil pan seems like it would be straight forward but like a lot of things turns into a project. The Milodon pan looks like a quality part.
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Oil Pan Part 2
The new oil pump came in and I installed the new shorter pick up into it (see photo). The Milodon suggested installation was to use a hammer. You can see my marks on the square part of the pick up. Milodon did not recommend welding the pick up. Instead, there was an arm on the pick up that attached to one of the oil pump cover bolts.
After looking at the set up, the one thing I didn't like was the plastic coupler on the intermediate rod oil pump driveshaft. I really don't want anything plastic in my engine so I ordered a new intermediate drive rod with a metal coupler (see photo).
I measured the pan and block for clearance to the pick up and came up with 3/8 of an inch. Then I put tinfoil on the top of the pick up and pushed the pan on and measured 3/4 of an inch. This was fine for me as the pan bolts would draw the pan up much closer.
The oil pump was primed and tested in a bucket and then installed. I put a thin bead of Permatex ultra black on the oil pan gasket and installed the pan.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tsu3iPpAmPC59Rqq5umlnakZ8gsNyjJY-rr-mLzaPVifn_uNFUwkXXfzqj52Xf5sxVlQucJUgXb60gd4E96Mg_r3yeiyLHCh5z_ERgmSSkiqN-fRjyD9T_IU1gXEAmSlVEN72QWSfA=w2400)
Pick Up Tube Installed in New Oil Pump
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/VjJtz5kuO_YZ5cXhAHVI9W6MtqZ_H71wlwkgZiVJNHX7-ppnkgQqzSjyvQGTqC9GHYapdzpA9ZFrA8zSwIyeQX4ivzu6Rg8GW5pgQZ4FAHBhYK6JHS8EVTGDmRks5tPl4aouzDuj1w=w2400)
Oil Pump Driveshaft with Metal Coupler
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QGRsl8UjfEz1P-PgG0PA6mUeLgFapKCKRpWmvvopStB1TtKxfmdeoxeghbAD-E5-e0oimJ7ogjGoE47ZxVC6QzQp2Oj2yN5XQe3Vk0GFDeuxOyM2C8bUb5pDABzRwKYdpv5g8eVBVg=w2400)
Testing Pick Up Depth
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Z_2Qbsr4yNvQ1WbPBn5a0P18vXpCGahFAfy-6uyNsW3xUPRxIcC4pf_8WQWLOxUWBDd1GAkPda4vue5itxicN9KOsy5UXD8Bsl_pLIYgeNYrV7KjhbrVPAMlD26FOukPTGeG_lUVdw=w2400)
Priming and Testing Pump
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TEVzfhC2BB_7XkzAkJWHvbZc50iRYzXSoviZr6zOkBbmNccvkaolvf8yA0AFilalqpkSHtl3o3l4aaFyBMqDNKHJ9pav7mtfDq5mHmMVgwDBXOtaV83trR_9JdnqTt2aFJo_6VrCXA=w2400)
Sealing Pan
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JM53HsATYhrb7TDbE_FgUU4EvYcPNFGkZbWYQ3a-CUa20PztCt8X7nr5kXEhBzJDt37KR7li493pUyIsHwsg-HyRtQ3lq0w7hRlQ6_AZ76eE4b-L-5ILkrFIdP1kpqAkhIDT4x_POQ=w2400)
Pan Installed
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Typical of your work Bob, Looks fantastic and nice and clean.
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Sniper Issue
I came out one morning and took the car to run an errand. It started fine, but halfway down the block it started to run rough. I could barely make it around the block and back home and the air fuel ratio was pegged at 35.6! It was smoking as well.
I Googled 35.6 and came up with a lot of hits. Apparently I'm not the only one that this has happened to. The consensus was that the oxygen sensor probably needed replacing. Others said maybe a bad ECU.
A new Holley oxygen sensor was $133 at holley.com. I read that an identical Bosch sensor was available at efisystempro.com and was only $70. So I ordered one from there.
It was pretty easy to replace. I did notice there was quite a bit of oil underneath the car and it appears that the right valve cover is leaking at the rear. I just replaced the left two times in the last four years but left the right alone because it wasn't leaking. Guess I have some work to do.
The car started up and run ran fine. The air fuel ratio was back to normal. I drove it the next day and there was a minor hiccup in the AFR but then it went back to normal and was OK from then on.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Y7zvO_AgsF7YqX7Ti6ERPjybpwL6VJnIzRNvheCqI94gq5EUjP_AwEJLuEt0LPd5muiOsfmN_6D3B99BkIdzz8sXpk97RUnU5PiS-kBEAzi-ZYGylYVwwJzk45JLnkfJScQZole2HA=w2400)
Problem Air Fuel Ratio
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PA2tHOT64BNI6f85LONBLxvj3PbxXFTnARr0kCWRjLvy3Tu0jSy7gXJQ-MJdcKRkI3VZN3j-gfnDYu3qHqOYfdPbep9nDm7RFjjLy4_79P4wqsoiAkXnvL1NOGoqgArokwTvrNBJ5Q=w2400)
Bosch Sensor
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tLEbuwhL-CZuVq8OlcHVr0XredEJSft7u-TJfUx1L5NwmRmZRupV3oeG4Mlbj2ntSPuizNsn7IrXv0gWplTlwEUPuSmONesY6H6yRU6OqWo6naOlCuFn5x4HlDAxRWuc5uBt4VxBXg=w2400)
Old Carboned Sensor
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wf4mfWNFPA68E674vOQBs0sHo8FgNUbpjVU-mKKomCqpaNolh_w912fDXM7uLcRsgZh7zkXpiyylP3N9aSbLDonfmA_Pj0sslueTGQ_wj6bCrU6chRrmViGxFcpg4bxoDXBMO9GlWg=w2400)
Wire Tied Up Away From Header
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How far back is that oxygen sensor?
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It's in the collector reducer pipe. See below at top. It is hard to tell from the picture, but it does have an incline angle upward as called for.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hRYaFMdv7IjNtIadC_fcBwmWacL3it46mdqR4U7fmdxQP-wFmv3VUQvGve9n2iQIkTv4FacGsIDaUg725xnuAQApHJxUWz5f61gStvO0xXtymB0cyxLJLzk9Dd0BZqayJvFkDs6xpg=w2400)
O2 Location in X Pipe
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mnnh.
It may be too far from the engine.
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I really don't know. I am going to have to get used to this EFI system and see how long these last.
At least, it is better than rebuilding the Q-jet every 3 to 4 years.
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Looks good Bob, glad you got the O2 fixed. It's pretty common those sensors fail. It almost seems that once they get a little fouled, they will fail shortly afterwards. One thing that you can do on the laptop is to turn down the learn % once the tune is solid. That way if the sensor goes bad in the future, it will only add up to say 10% fuel, rather than 50% fuel.
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Forget about the electronics, look at those "pipes!". (Thinking of the line from Bill Cosby's album...200MPH) :lol:
That is one sweet looking H/X pipe. Custom, or off the shelf?
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Ryan, after the O2 replacement, I went and pulled the right bank of spark plugs for a look. The porcelain tips and the base rings were sooty indicating a rich condition. The contact electrodes looked good indicating the ignition system was handling this pretty well.
I went to the Sniper settings and adjusted the air fuel ratio's. Upon initial installation of the Sniper, I just used the factory default settings. So now I increased the cruise AFR from 14 to 15.5. I also increased the idle AFR from 13.5 to 14.0. The wide-open throttle setting was left at 13. See the photo below.
Joe, those are mostly Pypes pipes. I was able to get stainless steel ball and socket reducers with O2 bungs from Summit. My welding skills aren't that great, so I brazed the X pipe together. When I replaced the O2 sensor, I inspected the pipe for leaks and found none. One of the Hedman headers is longer than the other so that's why the front is different lengths.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kYJJzIKwK1UgI7TPjxz-iIBDqztszg2YAKevw_gUOuXiy7Gx2JP6eWiOpixA9ihY7EqZ93dfa94DEAjpUdplkgjFj78s-x1v5FL2qQrGWXZsEHP9d2cNS3RS_0Rxqk0CPHbA3E06Bw=w2400)
Sniper AFR Settings
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Valve Cover Gasket
I know this isn't the most fascinating subject, but sometimes you have to do projects like this. When I was under the car, I noticed oil on the bottom of the transmission, on the right header, and around the oil filter. This led me to believe the valve cover gasket on the right side was leaking.
Changing the right valve cover gasket is a lot easier now that the air conditioning is removed. About the only thing to move is the dipstick tube. I pulled the valve cover and the gasket came off with the cover. I put it on the bench under a bright light and examined the gasket. The head had made about a 16th of an inch impression in the gasket and I could easily see that oil had gotten past this impression to the outside on the bottom and back of the cover.
There was no oil present on the top side of the gasket or on the front edge. I pulled the gasket out of the valve cover and found no oil between the gasket and the valve cover.
I cleaned all surfaces and wiped them down with grease and wax remover. Then I used Permatex Ultra Black on the valve cover gasket (see photos).
The bolt torque spec for Pontiac valve covers is 8 foot pounds. My 3/8” drive torque wrench will go down near that spec, but I really don’t trust it. So I have always just used judgment on the cover bolts.
This time I wanted to have an exact measurement with a torque wrench. A micro torque wrench at my local building supply was $60. I found one at Harbor Freight for $19, a no brainer (see pic). I set the torque rating on it to 5 foot pounds and that seemed enough to me with the aluminum valve covers. I also checked this setting by hand and it seemed plenty.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MAOjrPrkFyRhtXBPjKMddiiBcoSKWvn_EL7KDZPy06WEM4rzc8tJdIla8DOvXBJTy9egxKLukwdC-FXT50T_o5B9SbNvJmz1yY633_-ylXIpdP65PJE2QDmRTUTKZB06dH8Dnp0Okw=w2400)
Smear of Sealant on Cover
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4dV3aOubS3lbksijnGpzKMGGSMlmPBsDxf4Zzzzzh3ebvMhJByS71tbUcuNCfFt45ovvYvEbByr6IZRXS3iso0_qJIwY-QjQgB3SKiDKS-e2NzntikxCuJPjlylEZBX3KIzJFoPEtw=w2400)
More Sealant on Gasket to Head
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rcD6O-JYLn9AS53y3YjZK9E_xE3pZPrOmmi4h3GjavugzqulWTllP4r9pDv_Sptv2ZpRtKOaiuwf5rBY4G1HKODp65FijY6_NG8dM3PLXwPl2BXAKUdJ8spkDGMCbX8w_FGFmhycYg=w2400)
Harbor Freight Torque Wrench
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mzeSJYO23QfNgXL8KMQhDcFdHZvfoVulBeCRpTZnTL3XwysvX1B4b4Y37sNZXQT64hUOjtd6ApX4RCaUJ5_8_XXRUEr8BId_xqxTryUIbmk1wh5AuMPtlUf5Lf5dO8wEZI3euTlx4g=w2400)
Cover Back On
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I'm so confused Bob. I'll have-ta admit, altho I've been following along, I haven't read every single post. I can 't for the life of me, figure out why you're showing pics of a BBC, "AND" a Pontiac motor, in the same breath.
"Am I on candid camera?" :-?
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Good question, others may be wondering as well. The short answer is it has been a very busy year.
It started off with the plumbing repairs on the Minnesota house which kind of morphed into painting the downstairs. In May, we sold our Florida condo that we have owned for 20 years. About a month later, we bought a new home in Florida. There has been and continues to be a lot of work with this change of residence.
I do whatever I can on the car whenever I can get the time. But it is a hobby and I don’t fret about it. So the plan Is to keep the TA running the best it can be for now and do the engine change next year.
In another note, my changes above to the Sniper AFR ratio were a disaster. The car surged and ran poorly. If I had time to play around with it, I would do those changes one at a time or maybe in different increments. But for now it is back to where it was.
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Good question, others may be wondering as well. The short answer is it has been a very busy year.
In another note, my changes above to the Sniper AFR ratio were a disaster. The car surged and ran poorly. If I had time to play around with it, I would do those changes one at a time or maybe in different increments. But for now it is back to where it was.
You still didn't answer, why two motors?
Does that mean you'll put the QJ back on?
:lol:
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Well actually, I have contemplated going back to the QJet, but what I mean above is I went back to the original Sniper AFR settings before I adjusted them leaner the other day. It ran fine after that.
The plan is to replace the 270HP Pontiac motor with the 508HP Chevy in 2023.
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I am back from Florida and now in Minnesota. Selling the Florida condo and moving into a new home was a ton of work and a lot of expense. However, we did accomplish all of our goals with the new place. I did all the work myself except we had the lanai screened in before we left.
So being tired and poor, no engine swap for this year. Instead, I am going to focus on all the little things I have put off to do bigger projects. Control arm bushings and T-Top seals are two projects that come to mind, but I am sure there will be others.
Since no one likes a post with no pics, here is a photo of the view out the screened in lanai at the new home:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/H1yUgiJdBgHigYPr6r3nqA65z69u6Ulz1LlMZZEiClLF__RvD9clJRjn9DvrK4YKG8JmDipddyohf_rfQKWuU5slkjRN-_Abyhi_mWDl8L0fkTx5_ayEA7oENsKNbClxwVS-3NaK4g=w2400)
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Doesn't look like Minn. to me, Bob.
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Bob, we all know life is all about priorities. Florida home has a beautiful view, sure beats shoveling snow in the winter.
I enjoy following your post and admire your work on the 502 engine upgrade. Looking forward reading and seeing more when you can get back to it!
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I might have to move to Minnesota too! looks amazing!
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Beautiful and relaxing. I love FLA, my family has shallow roots there. My grandparents started going back in the late 20's, spent the winter and came back north. Still have lots of long lost relatives there as well as currently cousins that have followed the footsteps and moved there. Where is your new place? My grandparents lived in Hollywood, and I spent many a winter there growing up. It was a small town then and safe for a 8 yo kid to spend the day wandering the streets. Mom and dad bought a place in Port Charlotte, and the setting was identical to the pic you show. It was a really nice place as well. She sold after dad died regretibly. Cousins in the villages and crystal river.
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I might have to move to Minnesota too! looks amazing!
MN positives, won’t need AC in summer, fun to cruise around not much traffic and restrictions, looks good in fall and summer, spring can be nasty.
MN negatives, snow, snow, pot holes, snow, rust on all classics.
Snow does give a good time frame to work on the car and not regret taking it apart since you can’t drive it anyway.
Couldn’t imagine living elsewhere though!
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Ya, I live in Ohio and I have to travel north to MI or the UP to find good snow (we put 1200 miles a year on snowmobiles). The weather change in this area is pretty good as you said to get things done. We are on the water in the summer, the shop in the fall and on the snow in the winter, we keep busy!
I think I'd like to live in FL later but the bugs and gators in ever spit of water aren't too attractive though. Warm weather is nice.
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Our Florida home is in Naples. If your thinking about Florida, there are a lot of places that are less expensive and offer a more temperate climate. This last winter was the hottest we have ever had.
With regard to Minnesota, it is a lot of snow shoveling (or blowing) in the winter. The traffic in the metro area is also very heavy, and when it snows, it becomes a complete gridlock. You can live here in the winter, and I have for most of my life, but if given a choice you'd go south.
My wife wanted to come home for Christmas this year to have a family Christmas. Of course, it was a cold spell for our time here. One of the days we were home, the high temperature was 12 below zero.
The amount of salt used on the roads spells doom for cars after about 10 years. I guess it is the perfect system for the car manufacturers. The only reason my TA survived was because I only drove it two winters. It did pick up a bit of rust, but I have since eliminated it. There was literally nothing left of my 1980 Suburban body by the time I junked it!
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Naples is def a nice place to be in the winter :grin:
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Electric Fan Operation
Two years ago, I installed a pulse width modulation (PWM) fan controller to operate my Lincoln Mark VIII fan. This device eliminates surges in the electrical system and operates at the speed necessary to cool the engine. At least that's the theory.
So a few days ago, it was a nice warm day, and I decided to take my classic car for the first drive of the year. There is a short freeway loop in in our area so I turned onto the freeway and immediately realized I made a big mistake. The freeway was completely stopped from the ramp going up, and I ended up sitting in traffic for a half an hour. During this time, the engine temperature slowly climbed by 20° and fortunately I was able to take the next exit before it overheated.
This forced me to look at the way that I had installed the controller and I discovered two things. The first was that I had hooked up the fan controller to the low speed cable of the fan (the Mark 8 fan is a two speed). Secondly, I had put in an emergency switch under the dash to operate the fan at full power (still low). I had completely forgot about this switch when I was stuck in traffic! It uses the failsafe terminals of the controller.
Time for a different set up! First, I hooked up the controller to the high speed fan wire where it should've been in the first place. Secondly, I designed a new backup system for failsafe control. This took the form of two high amp relays that are triggered from the Sniper fan controls to go on at certain temperatures. I did not use the failsafe function within the controller because it is something backing up itself.
Also, I put a two way switch under the dash that will turn on the (now) high fan through either one of these relays manually. However, the new Sniper backup system is automatic so this switch is mostly used for testing. There is also an alarm buzzer under the dash that turns on if the Sniper fan 2 temp setting is reached.
Hopefully, this is now covered!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9pQK5Ai4BeqznAGPEuEWP2cLiZtV6qhCFM1hU0wC0WsrUJp7Jcisof7oD9lE-ejM0Iybu9Fdq4IUPIjB0_xc-_V-62Ga7BKDAehbAirjah6AEp480vwaZpU98Lobw1pvq-Xrll64-w=w2400)
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That's a pretty neat setup you have. I remember you installing it too.
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One of the reasons I went with a thermostatic clutch fan on my LT build - bog simple.
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Point taken. I have to have a PWM controller and a backup system with this large fan.
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Turn Signal
A year ago, I installed a new turn signal switch. I had a hard time with this because when I got it back together, the steering wheel was on crooked. I eventually ended up grinding off a tooth on the lock ring, because it would only go together one way. Now, for the past year, the turn signal is not working properly when turning to the right. About half the time, it wants to stick without moving into the right position.
After putting up with this for a year, I came to the conclusion that the reason it was sticking was because the lock ring was in the wrong position. So I took it apart and put the lock ring back to where it should've been. And, voila, the steering wheel was crooked just like last year.
After thinking about this for a while, I noticed that there was some wiggle room in rotating the horn ring collar and post within the the lock ring. Both years I had installed the post in the extreme right position within the lock ring. So I rotated the collar to where the post came through on the left side (see pics) of the ring opening, and put the steering wheel on and it was perfect!
I thought I had this all figured out, but I was in for a big surprise. When I put the horn button on, the bird emblem ended up upside down! The horn button would only go on one way, so I popped out the emblem and tried to turn it upside down. But the emblem had a post on it that went on only one way, so I ground off the post and glued it on the other way. But grinding off the post had a poor result; see picture below.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3myNhZEwm_lpg4OMIP_uye1ODQWs8TC8vANlfWx-QViuUefoAMtcUh-ufziYf4PM4Uvk2SlYMnNMJUcPtASWFeZEQWbC0ET_8RO-jyawUC5gZk9g-a0rW9qYsdQ8ZljsKGJGJnY_JA=w2400)
Horn Post in Right of Lock Ring Opening
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LZAG_rPTN4O_3hEXixpZKQ04gGQRfVfmPzjYAZwRLR2feTPjanQIQCo18Fm3XFuhrgfuMaSD5Qu46m-qeZ4Dcjp60hJf9WQRUSjXdEuxmR9URigq-Y-xDDfBqGCzWM9c4er2bmoTFQ=w2400)
Post Rotated
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TU63eEFGelawU6vZsq7UgW3WDJS3TMjFLRxZRLm3_mii3xzJHckYWgVkbHrz-AVM8_EVV3vBGZhk3-ZX-KGtFBVPMBwXVxB-D13aPd_ygZCj0e7eu2_xFoBRzuPwYkCO5klJVTU3YA=w2400)
Upside Down Bird
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/s8WgeehF6o_T8Euc1LAArB8ER0G8mVX4gjFkUYrDT38dp39N-nPpx4CW-6bXZ52zwyLEmhNjAfnBMFXiKzRkW-MGFdVvrNG66h3mq4Ofng4HXCeBmNd8j3O-R0YEB_Xcg87u6xHpjQ=w2400)
Rotated Emblem
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Like Rosanna Rosanna Dana's grand-ma use-ta always say. "Ya know (?), it's always sum-tin". Nothing can be easy. Been there, done it. Congrats on getting it all lined up.
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It’s funny how something that should be straight forward can turn into a project.
I remember having similar issues after I mounted my steering gear box. I seem to recall counting turns lock to lock and dividing by two for centering the steering gear. But when the Firebird was right side up the front wheels were off to the left slightly. I had to adjust the tie rod sleeves, basically perform Toe in adjustment.
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Yes, this was a comedy of errors. At least I can laugh at myself. I knew I should not have to adjust anything in the front end because I never changed it when i took the steering wheel off.
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Retrosound Radio
My radio has been working intermittently for the last few years. It works sometimes and then it doesn't; very frustrating. My first thought was that it was a loose wiring connection.
Yesterday, I checked all the connections and found nothing wrong, so I started playing around with it. If I just turned the key to ignition it worked. If I started the car, then it didn't work. After fiddling with it for a while, I determined that anytime the voltage was up around 13 or 14 volts, the unit was cutting out.
I went online and found this voltage regulator and ordered it:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y5JHZG2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y5JHZG2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1)
If this doesn't work, I am losing my patience with this unit. I am about ready to pull the trigger on a modern unit with Bluetooth and phone app control. This would require me to cut the dash, but I just don’t think the quality on these classic units is that good. I thought about putting it in the top of the console like 5th did, but I like it up higher where it's easier to get at.
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I hooked my 77 red dot and console 8 track through a Bluetooth enabled amp for what it’s worth if that’s a route you’re interested in.
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I have read about the bluetooth amps; that is a good option in some cases. I already have two amps and they are working fine so i don't want replace them.
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I bought a in line blue tooth device that plugs into my amp in the trunk. But my radio doesn't run through it. I just use it to play music from my phone.
https://www.amazon.com/DS18-Bluetooth-Streaming-Receiver-Waterproof/dp/B07BV578YG/ref=asc_df_B07BV578YG/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309820150211&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=921615298080441865&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9015072&hvtargid=pla-571983470598&psc=1
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Mnbob, do you have your 81 master setup documented somewhere? I would like to do the same thing.
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It was in the lost data on the site. I have been really happy with 81 master cylinder; it is aluminum and plastic so it is 7 lbs lighter than the 79 master. But you have to pair it with an 81 booster for it to fit. I have read the 79-81 dual diaphram boosters are the best and people use them on other car models. I got mine at Rock Auto.
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Here are before and after photos:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaXvlJF1eL5N3PiCr_-myRt2gnWVm6BkBR74Qak1nr3bTbIowYLFu84TfBL0F4B-eL0ViTK7B1u-AUFMAwmHlTfVis5BkoZc435L77ys3cCcEb9zvto=w1200)
2012 Photo Original Rusty Master and Booster
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaXIyxUUwb5Fia40WJowoc9IXviEy5U52V1KdSlJZZprVwheYadRpG2w_rUUQ-ApW9xTOYPOJRIYzij7ZoIb40SUKKJwcl2vqylOvl97a2Thk3hF3AI=w1200)
1981 Master and Booster
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That's nice. Thank you very much 👍
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The 81 master is nice I have the 4 wheel disc master on mine with 4th gen rear disc. Stops like a new car, I absolutely love it.
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Beautiful view! We just got back from St. Augustine last week. We rent the same condo every year. Of course, the Atlantic view as nowhere near as nice as the gulf view. We go there simply because we like the history and architecture of St. Augustine. Congrats on the new home!
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I love the detailed posts! Have you considered going to something like a Sniper EFI that will control the fans in conjunction with the EFI?
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Ryan, the main fan controller system is the Auto Cool III PWM set up. The Sniper EFI is the backup system. If the PWM controller fails, the temperature will rise and the Sniper fan control will take over with temperature set points for fan #1 and fan #2 activating the fan control relays.
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Aluminum Radiator
The brass four core radiator is 12 years old. Last year, I had purchased a Cold Case brand aluminum radiator; so it was time to install it. The Cold Case was indeed a direct replacement and was dimensionally the same as the old one.
It was all pretty routine except for the brackets. I had designed my own brackets the last time and after looking at them, it was time for brackets 2.0. The old brackets had sharp points that could contact the case and they were a two piece design that was cumbersome to work with.
I found some aluminum U-channel at my local building supply. This was listed as channel for three-quarter inch plywood. It fit the rubber mounts for the radiator perfectly. All I had to do was form some end tabs for them.
The mount screws on the left bracket went through the core support and into the core support extension. I had to make two holes in the extension so that you wouldn't have to remove the radiator mount whenever the extension was removed.
Besides being better at cooling than a brass radiator, the new radiator was lighter than the old one by 6.6 pounds. My unofficial weights were aluminum - 17.8 pounds; brass - 24.4 pounds.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaWCVUpdSc5UOxN1TT8R7AnlhVMMS-n2spfQbrw_K8wL-AkhnI73h8faubspOyNl38duI3rEmDOC_8_9oUgYDhZHMZemNWQGsP6VFumQffQFb77R4Ho=w1200)
New Radiator
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaXr3mWtMEamVB7ckVoVRHm54s3IJnNGOkzZhh8m1mZog5f8ztIFANVO6RlYyydKCoErhforxAlb0tXVp3LVClMM0lKpupwIzROQak8XkaLqbFew-Hk=w1200)
Old Bracket
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaVt18pK1o_LGZ4Jf6nkrHTLXe5aq4IJhKTxWP589ZENXGKhkXWMmRkkrNXRHEUcuRhE_LwT2bFylZegDs_BHXES7TwuFmBmtgdris3LCQG_G4OQfT4=w1200)
New Bracket
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaWZy9DOAYMYoGMco-xpX11D5-Jv3HRBT-vOFKjZhCWMiQPAAsZOo7-FZ5i7yKELCs_JuHWpUZ8-VDPtMiS7bDQ-UFBz_ZwXBrDgzeBBcFwm2Yhgd_8=w1200)
Bracket Mounted (excuse the dirt)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6XUICXHK5Sjb1_IKQV2iD5hqcL8gsIPpODpdsEPNjuZ-pzFnF2XxFV65WEEsgVm2fw2zHNcXxoPOgPrsS65elJrJ7ezuErWn-arB2rvThWXdLFxwUWplxdl3X0dwF9DaQggb8nOJ4Q=w1200)
Right Side
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Eqi2sdf057tC7_H3wJ-z-ZJW136ZwWjvxOToU5NJO3OfSLrxDdfOZztBRS8te-rKMrFYRjFsTJyWbAqffvx4vNYbrptsurjn9cpYCul9IsJ2SKMqkVZMA3TTRVLsO763I5KPQSmHgA=w1200)
Left Core Support Extension Access Holes
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MNBob, nice job on the mount fabrication.
I had to upgrade the radiator on my car because it was originally a 2 core that came with the 301 NA engine. I think the cold case is a quality part and since the manufacturer provides a lifetime warranty, they have confidence in their product as well. I am running the original clutch fan and shroud with my 461 without any issues. I run a 180 degree thermostat with the temp gage on my EFI indicating anywhere from 180 - 190 degrees. Including about a 10-minute sit in traffic on a 90 degree day with the AC running. Sitting in traffic for a longer period would be a much better test, but with your electric fan setup I wouldn't think you will have any problems.
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The Pontiac shrouds, fans and clutches are excellent. I have told the story before, but my car overheated in downtown traffic the first day I got it. Fortunately, I was watching the temp gauge and pulled over so no harm was done. After that, I switched to a four core radiator and never had any issues with cooling again.
I switched to an electric fan when I read the average mechanical fan uses 10 to 15 hp. The Mark VIII fan has been excellent, but it needs some electronics to run it because of the high amp usage.
The original temp gauge with the sensor in the head typically runs about 160°. The Holley temperature sensor in the intake crossover runs about 187°. I don't know why there is this big difference, but the truth is probably in the middle someplace. It will be interesting to see where it runs with the new radiator and fan control on the high fan wire.
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Test Drive
I couldn’t wait to take the car for a drive after rewiring the fan control system and installing the new aluminum radiator. Wow, somehing is definitely up here as the temperature on the Holley gauge hung around 172° and it used to run at 187°! It was morning and the temp was 70, so I will test again later. Cooler is better in my opinion.
I used to have the Sniper handheld installed in front of the cubby at the top of the council. After thinking that I might have to install a radio there, I moved it up to behind one of the center vents (see pics). I really like this location as it is much easier to view when driving. The center vent is not hooked up anyway.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tVyNCiveobDLJ_jTLUgLT5_HCyuNCbaT1EQE4MzAt9d_FTuedXb5flruRP6DGyvdtpZs8F8sBvBm-suWxxhptuh36sPXe_mRKAIHF3ljsaU5nd6WGGVnfFr-ZppZqdt_Cbl-S3Yv5g=w1200)
Handheld in Front of Console
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HzRDhA0FZ9k-0fvVcBflEZ-iA_nrtCrxpfI_mmfEWKSfvRa3CBCc-FVbxCI4o5PG9JI-FWaoy1XMi1bEAxF_39oYX_gqV4mC9dqzyC9IMibv7yqSH7NyWSbtUBly9_OQ0bI6EuVegw=w1200)
Handheld up with Gauges
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Radio Issue
As reported above, my radio has been going in and out when I drive. I surmised a voltage problem, so I ordered a voltage regulator. While I waited for the regulator to come in, I went in and searched on single din units.
The new radios have a tremendous amount of capability. They can do Bluetooth, phone, CDs, flash drives, Alexa, and Pandora as well as AM/FM. From my younger days, I have a large collection of CDs, so that ability would be really welcome. I used to be able plug my old phone into the RetroSound, but I no longer have that capability with the new phone, which has no mini-jack output.
Well, the regulator came in and I tested it (see pic). Wouldn't you know, it solved the problem perfectly! Hmmm….
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zkn7mhn1YeM1eZ6uRgD04uOFBSCpARWqA2U0qMXjsW2vR4kwfiAqJDISTWfARaSnGh-kJWQqpPEx60HT2kClGZGw5KY_hnutyQOlU8kVttb5JQbEB75QUsgvnDQM3ItXbN_EJtsN-w=w2400)
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Radio Part Three
Previously, I had installed a voltage regulator to try and make my old radio work properly. This worked for a while and then it didn't. I ordered a new Kenwood CD player to replace it. The new unit has Bluetooth, phone, CD, flash drive, as well as AM/FM. I also ordered a new single din bezel plate from Restore A Muscle Car.
Installation was pretty easy, except for cutting a hole in the dash. I chose to use a mini hacksaw for more control and less likelihood of damage to the dash surrounding area. All connections on the harnesses were soldered on the bench.
I had to use some temporary RCA cables because mine were too short, But I got it hooked up and working. I ordered some new cables and will put everything back when they come in.
After testing this unit, I cannot be more happy with it. It is like stepping ahead about 20 years. Previously, I thought my system lacked bass and I needed a sub. Now I am not so sure.
Hooking up to Bluetooth on my phone was easy. You can use Pandora or any other app. The control system with the knob on the face plate is easy to use, but I downloaded the app and used it to set the screen color.
Here are the pics:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dyslp74Ww6v0A38I__LZ3CmO99ABC6ZbyIzVkW3ShuPBtsglThGQoOL8U96-Fef2_xQV8RS3TLh0e3bym0eUcwD6chr3dA6dNzX1ctailP6u96VQoGlzOd63Njn9j4Fo7DuLClK0Zg=w1200)
Wiring Harness Prepped
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kh18Um8Qq_CeW0b0KM3Ds05TH9MmTPExCHVRqiwtUs0wDN-pBr_isebGmiTwi6tL-Hp6WSXoNug_tgW5pmpaxjGtPYKSjCZGTuIaaqcsDDOoPr8ld4dhTO2GPQoTNaeTcC0lcQPXGQ=w1200)
Dask View
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7FNyLl4Skzfx9OdVIc_xixXTQgx7UJHILUGO74Ihii2psuEVCd9Q-3h_A1vYKhzlTZliD2vu1XHtF3Ydq22GgnfAvpErpvjLOFd2OT7a6J7hySMzoNvo0K5st--1-XwjKEU6iIz6-g=w1200)
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Nice job on the installation. I too like to use solder connections and heat shrink for wire connections. That radio face plate really fits nice. Out of curiosity, does the new radio have a graphic equalizer or Bass, Mid and treble for tone adjustment?
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It has everything you can think of and more. From the button menu on the unit, there is a function called easy EQ. This has subwoofer level, bass, mid, and treble settings. You can also choose from predefined sound fields, like rock, pop, jazz, etc, and user defined. User defined, brings you to an equalizer with 13(?) bands. It is easiest to use the phone app when you adjust this equalizer because it gives a graphic display of your choices.
It has a ton of other settings impacting the sound including, loudness, bass level, car size, speaker position, speaker size, balance, fader. When I first turned on the unit, the bass was dominating, I now have the sound just right for me.
The pre-outs on this unit are really powerful. I had to go to all the amp level controls, turn them down, and rebalance the system.
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Congrats on the radio, looks really nice! I like what you did with the radiator mounts as well. I will be installing my very soon now.
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Very nice!!!
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Starter Disable
A few years ago, I installed a keyless entry system in the car that included a lot of whizbang functions. One of the functions that it came with was an anti-theft feature where you could disable the starter or ignition (or both) when the car doors were locked. I chose to disable the starter. The starter was re-enabled, upon car unlock.
I went to the local building supply about two weeks ago and came out to unlock the car with the clicker. There must've been some sort of interference because no matter how much I clicked, the car would not unlock. Being enterprising, I just took the key in manually unlocked the door. However, when I went to start the car, it would not turn over! I was ready to call a tow truck, but after fumbling with this for 15 or 20 minutes, the unlock finally worked.
Not wanting to ever repeat this experience, I now have installed a hidden safety switch under the dash in case this ever happens again (see pic). This was a ton of work because I had initially installed the relay behind the left kick panel! This was about one of my poorest decisions ever; because it is a real pain to remove that kick panel. So now the relay is moved it to behind the glove box.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaUH3DvT5kTxjOv0XTjCRX_ldYIA6njTiq59TD75Bf8RBRcNZ-BE4MqiWzgxrivvRblTO4Mmi9YbVGDrLYJ7QCxAu851myIcXIz_bgWfsC-npO_mBBs=w1000)
Splitting Starter Line To Switch and Relay
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaWnhmbNCsMqZ7xqFQSNxtlSJqsTCNxVRxWxL65WIV8X4-XhAXKC7PDdSfRLs7-v44xkCWeZq0m3yI5oBQ5jkePi1kdc1etMIHem1FB9tjJQkRk3bsA=w1000)
Installed Foam Seal on Kick Panel
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AJFCJaVaDUuaK0CeBhtKFBV4g3EQ6Iipfr5wo_8iRh9RhJePPmROgn_sp2NMhMMTF1t7wXwfFUuqaLl_ORhD4idfTcKbcCZwx1CH2KMAX5UnuwiKWrUe9mQ=w1000)
Hidden Bypass Switch Mounted
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Good idea.
A buddy years ago had a new Monte' SS (1988?), and the car was pretty clean. He didn't drive it much. Put a fuel line lock on it, (think it was located under the door/frame rail). Also had a steering wheel to pedal lock bar. Came out of a grocery store mid day, and his car was gone. Lots of commotion at the intersection. The thieves had exited the car and took off, cause it run outta fuel. He got lucky that day. Hopefully you won't have-ta experience that.
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Digital Speedometer
I first used a digital speedometer when I had my Infiniti FX 45. I got used to it and found it was really easy to read the speed; so I thought why not have the same thing in my Trans Am.
Amazon had one that had both a digital speedometer and a digital clock that was set by satellite, as well as other things. The original clock is not hooked up because it drains the battery. My right foot can get heavy at times so having this mounted on top of the dash keeps me out of trouble (see pic).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc93qyTlko4XEnYoEhVVVsEUCv9-TTyXkuAh8--ikCK2pfamGx3gsoyQSuWaXqg8zSX2ccGK-iUymnLO6EwKnSNqF8FvoY-b5JAlKeUMVfukSqMQ5qk=w1200)
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At 1st glance, I thought you mounted a shaker scoop to your dash. Very similar. :smile:
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Bob, thats interesting how does it get power. Do you charge it with a usb? I will have to look into one of those. I use my phone on an app but may have to look into that one.
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Joe, I didn't think about that, but you are right.
Kerry, the speedo uses the large rectangular USB B connector. I had to buy this and hook it to an ignition source:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086DF7646?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086DF7646?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)
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I like the idea of having the display right in your line of sight while you are diving. The only downside is if you get pulled over. The first question is usually “do you know how fast you are going”. It could be harder to plead ignorance with a legible speedometer sitting on your dash.
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I like the idea of having the display right in your line of sight while you are diving. The only downside is if you get pulled over. The first question is usually “do you know how fast you are going”. It could be harder to plead ignorance with a legible speedometer sitting on your dash.
LOL. This reminds me of the 70s, when a neighbors young, and good looking wife would get pulled over in his 77 Z-28.
"Do you know how fast you were goin lady?". And she would bat her long eye lashes, and say, "yeah, I was doin 30", as she pointed to her tach. Of course the young male officer would pump up his chest, and give her the tech on the operations of a tach and what its purpose was, and feeling quite proud of his knowledge and instructions to this cute girl. She would get out of quite a few tickets pulling that one. :lol:
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Digital Speedometer
I first used a digital speedometer when I had my Infiniti FX 45. I got used to it and found it was really easy to read the speed; so I thought why not have the same thing in my Trans Am.
Amazon had one that had both a digital speedometer and a digital clock that was set by satellite, as well as other things. The original clock is not hooked up because it drains the battery. My right foot can get heavy at times so having this mounted on top of the dash keeps me out of trouble (see pic).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc93qyTlko4XEnYoEhVVVsEUCv9-TTyXkuAh8--ikCK2pfamGx3gsoyQSuWaXqg8zSX2ccGK-iUymnLO6EwKnSNqF8FvoY-b5JAlKeUMVfukSqMQ5qk=w1200)
My speedo currently doesn't work and have been using my phone, which is a pain. This will be a good work around till I get the gauges restored and working
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I also got this one for my Jeep:
Digital GPS Speedometer for Car (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BVMCHQ7R?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details#customerReviews)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/719L+Cnk9gL._SX522_.jpg)
It has been flawless, is a little easier to read, and is only $14.
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Subwoofer Install
I have made the decision to trade in my 2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8. The Jeep used to be a second car, driven occasionally, and used for towing the boat. But now it has become a daily driver, and the mileage is very poor. Ironically, it had the same problem as the TA originally, too many rpm’s on the highway.
The 420 horsepower was really nice, and this was the best vehicle I have ever had for towing the boat. We are going to buy our first electric car, a Volkswagen ID4.
I had upgraded the Jeep sound system by installing very high-quality speakers and adding a subwoofer. The system was also the best I've ever had in a car. So I thought why not take the subwoofer and use it for my Trans Am.
I thought about putting it in the trunk, but it would take up space, and I thought it would be better in the left rear seat footwell. I ran the wires in the console and added about 6 feet of extra wire in case I ever wanted to move it or clean in the area.
This is not a boom out your neighbors subwoofer, but it really adds some depth to the music. The included wired remote also gives a lot of flexibility for adjustment and there are additional subwoofer controls in the Kenwood CD player. The Kenwood has subwoofer RCA outputs.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc8vMHki7nReTZkwdqZjMuU7appqDJgmoXRmOGaOAf0Yf7804L87FD-pFfeoSjStOwuvTjb3UEE08_KZ-9FXQMe-_Q4M7O_BLhy2RwexNnkoLsWd3B0=w1000)
Subwoofer Close Up on Bench
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc-O27Czzf26y15IhQnMb4FK8v-i2IbXm5Yd9syVKwGp3AgYqWq95sHQFqp3JGI7o8PzmSwH6kr_2idF2QERm9Zdp1YLDV9vf2zV0XP-tIrQM2zWehc=w1000)
Installed
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc_sJ70YLcR3j0EHkNkKGQlzFCkij-AU-OXuiVVuiYm8fUh5V5kXoRPO7PlE-BXq8WVXyo6u_0jF8EB7Mlzi5aoF5wCFOvpQy9zN-X94-916MHXNgfY=w1000)
Wired Remote Under Driver Seat
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It’s always nice when you can repurpose something like the subwoofer. Makes it a win/win.
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I normally just mind my own business, But I read that you were planning on buying an "Electric Car"...Based on my best friends Prius experience...and the Tesla that my Wife bought on a whim...I implore you to do your Home Work...There is in my opinion far more Down Side than any upside...When the Batteries died in the Prius...Rebuilt Batteries were over $1000.00, and the Warranty was very short. All of the Special Maintenance Tires/Brakes/Etc are pricey ... As for the Tesla... She's been locked out more time than I can remember, and the Foam Filled Tire she Punctured cost her around $500.00 after all the dust settled...She had to wait a week for an appointment to get the Keyless entry problem resolved... And I'm not sure that's entirely resolved. When the power goes off here, She can't charge the car...and so far this summer its already gone off 4 times and once for 8 hrs...I just take her to work in the Silverado... Just my .02...Regards.
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I like that display.
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langss, thanks for the input. There are always bad experiences with any car. My wife's daughter has had numerous Prius's and loves them. There are Tesla's everywhere here in this suburb and Naples.
We have done our homework on this car reading hundreds of magazine reviews, ratings, personal reviews, and personal conversations with owners. It has all been really positive. The car comes with an 8 year warranty on the batteries, as well as warranties on other items.
So I will report back here from time to time and let everyone know of our experience with it!
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Not to change the T/A subject but I would love to hear of your electric car experience when you get one. I think the idea is great and there is def a need. If I could afford one I probably would have one. I have a good customer that bought a Tesla 3 last december. He has nothing but good to say about the car. He recently took a trip from the DC area to Alabama and back up through the middle of the country, to Indiana and back home. Had no problems at all. Said the biggest things were thinking ahead about where to charge and the extended charge time once they stopped. Other than that he loves the car.
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Will do, I will give regular reports on how we fare with the vehicle here. I forgot to mention that a couple from Canada at our old condo would drive their Tesla back-and-forth from Canada to Naples every year. They absolutely loved their Tesla.
We could not turn down the value proposition offered by this car. First off, there was a $7500 rebate that we were eligible for. Secondly, the cost of electric is half the cost of gas, or maybe even a little less. Thirdly, Volkswagen offers free charging for three years at Electrify America charging stations with a purchase. We could literally drive across the country and paying nothing for it.
There is also the feel good aspects of this purchase. We will be doing a little to help the planet. The car is also made in the US in Chatanooga.
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Bob,
Looking forward to hearing your real-world experiences with an all-electric car.
My wife has a good friend that owns several businesses in Wisconsin requiring about 200 mile round trips between. They replaced a Ford Expedition (full size SUV) with a Tesla Model 3. Just talking about charging costs, they claim their monthly expense is about 1/3 of what gasoline was for the SUV. But we are kind of talking about an apples to oranges comparison regarding vehicle size and weight. They have made several round trips to Orlando and back with friends driving gasoline powered vehicles and claim travel time was very close. My understanding is the Tesla Charging Application is very good at guiding you to a charging station with little to no waiting time. The only drawback I have heard for Tesla is the long acquisition time for collision repair parts. Long term battery life is still an unknown, but repair and maintenance should be less than an internal combustion powered vehicle. I have talked to neighbors and friends who own Tesla's, they all are very positive. No doubt the future is in electric powered vehicles. In the long run I think cost per mile will be the driving force.
My wife and I both have Hybrids as daily drivers. Me a 2017 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid now with only 42,000 miles. When I retired in 2018 it had 22,000 miles. Spring Summer and Fall mileage is in the 42 to 46 MPG range. Winter time it drops to the mid 30's because the engine has to run to produce heat. My wife drives a 2013 Toyota Hylander Hybrid, it gets 28 MPG except in winter where it drops to 22-23 MPG. Her car has 144,000 miles, all I have replaced is tires, brakes, air filters, oil changes and a 12V starting battery. My wife drives with a lead foot and is hard on brakes, yet we still got 120K out of her first set of brakes. While I am all for protecting and helping the environment, I was more drawn to these cars because of the technology. Hybrid cars really shine in heavy traffic city driving. Mileage in city driving is often better than highway. On a hot summer day the AC works great, its all battery powered and engine stays much cooler because it's not running very much.
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We have about 25K miles on our 2019 Tesla Model 3 at this point. Overall, the only 2 issues we've had are the "starter" battery going out in the first couple of months (been ok since), and one of the door window regulators also recently had to be replaced.
Ours is a base model but it's still pretty quick. It drives and handles nicely. I think recent year models have more range but we tend to get about 200 miles per charge. We don't have the full self driving option but it has the standard autopilot which we rarely use as honestly I've never gained any trust in it. It also has the blind spot warning in the same screen instead of on the door mirrors - which I also think is a mistake.
I've grown to hate the interior (with the "Ipad" in the middle of the dash). I prefer having gauges directly in front of me, plus a lot of basic functions take some digging. The screen at times locks up (which renders the car useless) and needs fairly frequent rebooting/restarting. Also you can't aim the air vents - a feature on pretty much every car in the past 100 years. I do like the fact you can cool the car before you get into it and you can quietly run the AC when sitting and waiting for someone in hot weather (instead of having to turn your gas engine on).
I don't take the Tesla on roadtrips as I'd rather not deal with trying to find the charging stations, but that's just me. The service has been a bit hit or miss. It's nice that they'll stop by your house but sometimes it takes a while to get an appointment.
While the Tesla has been fine, for our next EV I'm thinking about going with one of the larger manufacturers.
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My son in law just bought a Tesla 3 sport model. It's fast but thats about all I can say good about it. I find the styling boring as well as the interior. For the money the interior looks cheap to me. But, it's not my car and he likes it. I would much rather drive my daughters new BMW 3 series which I really like.
I am not against electric, I would own the right one but so far nothing gets me too excited. I am not going to buy a car just to "Save the plant" especially if I find them ugly and boring looking
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Tesla interiors seem to have the big screen and not much else. Most of the other EV's have a more "normal" looking interior. As far as style, I think the ID4 looks ok for an SUV.
Here are the photos:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc-6anE_rR6FzW-xw_t01tMKeKxJhYAvCKv5gGB634ZUZuic7slG2aSLKZjTEPjMC6TiWN7GaSiXazTpO4HVHA2Dwvxvn3SeIJmcl_ToIrwYKQPjmPQ=w1100)
ID4 Interior
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc_Ocg6UqhVo8H98ernDHlKUYPeUMPm4ofxL2KTDojZWTvPzS_DVdcFHGL9Mg-HN1NflcDmjJKgIZSrWCy5j7vYQ7i-SPuBV7mfZ-rPFM9pE3FwVEOo=w1100)
ID4 Exterior
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My son in law just bought a Tesla 3 sport model. It's fast but thats about all I can say good about it. I find the styling boring as well as the interior. For the money the interior looks cheap to me. But, it's not my car and he likes it. I would much rather drive my daughters new BMW 3 series which I really like.
I am not against electric, I would own the right one but so far nothing gets me too excited. I am not going to buy a car just to "Save the plant" especially if I find them ugly and boring looking
Totally agree - there is nothing very exciting/engaging about the Tesla 3/S/X/Y models from a design or driver's perspective, inside or out. The driving experience even with the fast acceleration lacks something to me still. Now they did go more extreme with the Cybertruck design but IMHO it is too extreme.
I am interested to see how some of the upcoming EVs like the Dodge Charger turn out to be - with fake exhausts and fake shifting. Maybe that'll add some excitement to them, maybe not.
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Totally agree - there is nothing very exciting/engaging about the Tesla 3/S/X/Y models from a design or driver's perspective, inside or out.
This is also one comments of others on the ID4. However, we are not looking for a sports car, but a car to run errands and take an occasional trip.
Here is the summary in US News:
"The 2023 Volkswagen ID.4 is a spacious EV with a comfortable ride and good cargo room, but its driving experience lacks excitement, its infotainment system is not user-friendly, and the base model has a low driving range."
We are getting the single motor RWD Pro S model that has the larger 275 mile range and a higher trim level.
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Good to see people starting to come around to electric vehicles. If this discussion happened here even a couple years ago there would have been a lot more hate in this thread. Pretty soon we'll be reading about folks here doing an EV swap into their Trans Am. :grin:
We bought a Kia EV6 last year and I absolutely love it. We also have rooftop solar so zero fuel costs for us. I tell everyone that is shopping for an EV that the most important thing is to get one with DC fast charging. Most people will do >90% of their charging at home at level 2 but when you have to top up on the road, level 3 fast charging makes a huge difference. In the case of our Kia it can charge from 10-80% in 18 minutes.
Another upside is our Kia acts as a battery backup for our house for when the power goes out as it has Vehicle to Load. Had a gas generator but got rid of it since the car does it better.
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This post needs to get back on topic.
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Gene, thanks for sharing. I am glad to hear you are satisfied with the EV6. They are the top rated EV SUV.
That fast charging rate is really fast. The spec for ID4 is a half an hour. I think when you travel with a EV, it is a little diferent mindset. It is ok to stop for a break, or get something to eat, or explore a little. You just have to allow a little more time.
That is interesting about the solar. How long could the car power the house?
I am super excited about getting this car (mid August) so this discussion is fine with me. Thanks to all that have shared.
I have no new TA accomplishments because I am rehabbing our deck.
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A friend of mine has the ID4 and really likes it. We were able to get the federal tax credit on the EV6 but unfortunately that's not available anymore for Hyundai/Kia.
Regarding the Vehicle to Load feature, the king of this technology currently is the Ford F-150 Lightning which can provide 9.6kW 220V output in a true Vehicle to Home configuration. The Kia on the other hand can only output 1.9kW 110V but that's more than enough to run the refrigerator, computers, and a bunch of LED lights. It's not enough to power our central A/C but it is enough for a small window A/C unit. It's also enough to power the blower on our gas furnace if we need heat during a winter outage. With a full battery the EV6 can provide that power for over 40 hours.
It sounds like there are a few people interested in EVs here so I'm going to start a new thread in the Lobby on electric vehicles so we can continue the discussion.
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That is a surprising amount of power for the house.
Thanks for starting the new thread, I will share my ID4 experiences over there.