84 301T

[tajoe]

What happened to my last post? Did the blizzard blow it away?
I'm hoping to get back out in the garage, and start to prep for the battery relocation. Because chevy puts the battery on the passenger side, and Pontiac is opposite, I'll need-ta remove the evap canister, and cruise control module to make room for the tray. Then try and put together a starter for it.
 

[ryeguy2006a]

Looking good!

[FormTA]

I wonder how difficult it will be to relocate that stuff. I know 2nd gen it's easy but it may be trickier with that 3rd.

[tajoe]

Looking good!

Thanks boss.

I wonder how difficult it will be to relocate that stuff. I know 2nd gen it's easy but it may be trickier with that 3rd.

Well, let me just state, "anything" I do, and I mean anything, will turn out to be difficult. But at this point in my life, I'm use to it. About the only thing i have going for me is I'm persistent. Maybe not that intelligent, or lucky, but if something doesn't turn out the way I want it to, if the barrage of 4 letter words don't work, then shutting it all down, walking away, (sometimes longer than I should), I'll be back to fight another day. And I'm sure you've all been there. One day you'll be battling something for "hrs", slam the doors shut, come back the next day, and the same dilemma will fall right into place. Unless you're a professional, and nothing "ever" goes wrong. (Wink, wink)

[scarebird]

I would leave the battery where it is and just run extra cable to the starter.

Better balance too.

[tajoe]

Too late. Cruise control gone, and so is the evap. Just pulled them out. More to come.

[scarebird]

ah, an excellent time to find out the OEM cranking amps required for your 301T.  With that info you can downsize the battery, saving weight on the worse corner of the car.

...or put it in the rear, helping the balance.  It is a royal pain, but can be worth 2% weight shift.  Then you can go down the weight rabbit hole and think of KRE heads, etc.   

[tajoe]

ah, an excellent time to find out the OEM cranking amps required for your 301T.  With that info you can downsize the battery, saving weight on the worse corner of the car.

...or put it in the rear, helping the balance.  It is a royal pain, but can be worth 2% weight shift.  Then you can go down the weight rabbit hole and think of KRE heads, etc.   

LOL. Out of balance, SB? Aluminum heads you say? I guess if I put "1" on the drivers side, it would off-set the battery relocated.  As for the cranking amps, I don't think the little low compression 301 is any harder to start, than the 305. 4 D cell batterys in series would probably turn it over.
Tonite I messed around with the battery tray, and found..."I don't need a tray.!" Pontiac already had it there! I was pumped. Not only was the tray on the drivers side better than the other side, (rusty), it even has the drilled and tapped nut plate for the battery hold down. And opposite that, the built in clamping rail was there too.
Can you imagine what it would look like with a battery in it? OK. here it is...cables and all. (Pay no attention to the hole in it)
 
I started to chase down the electrical leads to the solenoid, and found them. Will have-ta open up the harness to run them over the other side. Guess I'm gunna have to invest in a factory electrical manual, just for sanity's sake. Anyone know of a suppler?
 
I also went thru my scrounge, in the hunt for a starter, and this is all I could come up with. (Guess I'll be ordering a reman. Ebay is a wash)

And finally, what to do with the evap can? Maybe here? (Don't really plan on using it.) Maybe I can route the fuel line thru it, and fill it with ice? 

Next post will be about the removal of the cruise control. (I know some will think I'm nuts. I am, I admit it.)
 

 

[FormTA]

That's wild! They really were that close to offering that car with a Pontiac engine.  That had to he like as the first ones were going down tye line getting a call hey, don't put any Pontiac engine in those....

[tajoe]

Makes you wunder, don't it Luke. Or was it easier to make one filler for that area, rather than tooling up for a blank one. Who knows.
Found an 84 factory shop manual on line, with the electrical diagrams in there. Now waiting for that, "and" the frt alt. bracket.

[tajoe]

been researching the cruise on this car, and it's turning into a fiasco. Removal of the underhood components wasn't too bad, but under the dash is a different story. Lots of internet info, but most is inconclusive. I have an electrical component under the steering column that has a "huge" multi wire connector, with a bunch of components  attached to it, and I thought it to be the controller, but I believe that is located on the passenger side kick panel, where the ECU is. Running out of time right now, but will get back to post some photos.

[FormTA]

Back when I was working on my 67 camaro, I used a mid 80 el comino steering column. I purchased a turn signal stall and cruise control mechanism. The stalk was identical to the stock GM unit and the under hood parts were all dakota digital stuff. Just mentioning it if you want cruise and want it to look stock.

[tajoe]

Thanks for the tips, and very clever to pull off what you did. But I'm removing the cruise from this car. The components are in the way, and I won't be traveling far in this thing to need cruise. At least not for now. I'll keep the entire system, and don't plan on hacking it up. Just be storing it, for........?

[scarebird]

*Obi Wan voice*  "There is another..."

I thought perhaps that was where the battery went with the Pontiac Iron Duke 4 banger, but the starter is on the passenger side - so that is out.  I think Luke is right - the P301 was to go in but was cut after the black metal stamping dies were made.

[ryeguy2006a]

Very cool that the battery fits on either side! It could have also been to future proof the car not knowing what engines may be out 10 years down the road.

[tajoe]

I guess, "only the Shadow knows". And just now, I opened up my care package consisting of the correct alt. bracket. Hopefully the holes will all align and I can check that off my list.
As for the cruise control dilemma, I think i know what's up, and will post pics, and what's goin on. Right now, it's 40° and sunny out, and I need-ta load my truck up with tooling to bring to Brockton tomorrow to work on my old house my sister lives in, and work it. "Inside? outside"?, won't know till I get there. She got over 2' of snow last weekend, and don't know how much clean-up is still needed. Another missed opportunity to work the T/A.   
Below is a tease of the cruise system that I'll delve into next. (And the evap can)

[tajoe]

I'm back from my weekend excursion, but B4 I left, I quickly tried fittin the new alt. bracket, and of course, it's fighting me too. 
 Maybe I'll get to play tomorrow. Hope all had a productive weekend. Mine was OK, altho it didn't involve my 84.

[scarebird]

I had a 1983 Berlinetta I bought from my father.  We put in a 1985 305 Tuned Port motor and trans, among other things.  It ran quite nice.   Later I added factory braces to the front, pictured below.  I also fabbed up a "Wonderbar" to brace the steering box (IROC's with big tires were ripping them out of the frame).   You being a TA driver I figure it may see some hard use...

[tajoe]

Funny thing SB, I "just" clicked on my Email, and saw your notification pop up. Good tip on them braces and appreciate the pictures. I'll probably pick up a set when I start getting into the frt end. Thanks. 
Now to get into the garage, put the tooling away I needed for the previous weekend, and get back into the 84.

[tajoe]

Not real happy right now. The frt alternator bracket that came in on Fri (?), I was monkeying around with just now, and does it fit? Of course not. It was sold as a 301 turbo bracket, and looked the part, compared to the ones I had here, so I bought it. It was only 20 bucks (+ shipping), and I waited almost 2 weeks for it. So I did "more" researching for it, and found the correct P/N, and this one is a couple digits off. And I also have been using the link below, to see what's on these engines. It's someone's 1980 301T project, with a ton of photos, and I've been using it for references.
https://www.v8online.co.za/TransAm-301-Turbo/pontiac-301-turbo-engine-pictures.php
The problem stems from the alternator housing mount bolt pad hole centers, that seem too wide. The top hole that slides on the elongated section on the top of the bracket, and the bigger boss on the bottom hole that the alt. pivots on, seems too far apart. The hole in the bracket acts like it needs a smaller alt., but we all know those years are the same centers. So why can't I make any of these fit? Because (as of today, when I found out what the "correct" bracket looks like), it has another hole on the bottom of the bracket, to accept the alt. When I get the new one I just ordered, I'll post some pics. Very frustrating the time I've spent trying to mount these accessories. I contacted the seller of the wrong bracket, and hoping he'll make it right. 

[FormTA]

Ya, hopefully he does. I bet he has one somewhere and that that one was it.

[tajoe]

He responded with "No, I only have this one left", and shows a picture of another Pontiac bracket, that also was the wrong one. And that was his only reply. So I replied, "I guess I'll be eating this one", and am now waiting for him. Ebay wants me to give "feed-back" for my purchase, and I don't wanna give a negative, if he comes back with something honest. The clock is ticking.

[tajoe]

And here goes my cruise control "elimination" story.
Because the battery needed to be relocated to the drivers side, I had-ta open up the slot. I showed a picture above of what it looked like, but I'll replay it here, to add to this chapter. Remember the evap can, and this actuator was in the way.

This actuator controls the throttle, and has a heavy cable going up to the carb. (which won't work on my 301T set-up) so it needed to go. It also has a large electrical conduit running thru the firewall, to under the dash. Conduit marked in white chalk at the firewall. And arrow pointing under dash.

And from the underneath, in frt of the left tire, is a vacuum can, that comes off, but won't come out, till I remove some bolts from the spoiler. It has a hose running up thru the wheelwell frt.

As for the wiring under the dash, 1 plug needed disconnecting from the harness, and I got confused with what I thought to be a computer control for the cruise, but learned it's in the passenger side kick panel. I'm still not sure what this block is for.


I'm waiting for my factory manual to come in, to check out the electrical. Not sure if I already posted this, but here's "most" of the CC system, with the evap can.

So much for that. Waiting for some deliveries, being the manual, the alt. bracket, and lastly, the starter. didn't have anything worth rebuilding, so had-ta go back to the bay. To be continued.

[tajoe]

The canister on this block is the flasher. That's about all I can find out. With the internet at my fingertips, you'ld think that someone in this world has posted a picture on how this component is mounted. I can't....yet. It mounts somewhere above the gas pedal. Not even sure its proper description.

[tajoe]

Well, I received some goodies today, (and yesterday), and hope to play this weekend.
I got a factory 1984 service manual, and it was barely marginally helpful. It doesn't have photos, but a series of black and white drawings for those areas in question. The component above, they have labeled a "convenience center". (Gutta love engineers), but shows a primitive drawing. Anyway, it holds the seat belt buzzer, the hazard flasher, a relay for something, and maybe a couple other things. But the drawing is generic, and doesn't show it attached to anything under the dash. I did find something similar on the 3rd gen forum, but even it isn't exactly like my 84. His was an 87. I've spent hrs, over a few days, and still haven't figured it out. At this point, it don't matter, cause I have other pressing things to do to the car, but I was glad to get the CC removed.
I've just received my starter, and alternator bracket, (again), and hope to get past that, and rough in my exhaust system. Fingers crossed.

[tajoe]

So much for crossed fingers. It didn't work. this 301T motor is a beast in itself. The starter (?) for a 301, the one that came in the mail off of Ebay, wasn't right. It was for a RHs mount, and the picture of it wasn't very good. When did Pontiac "ever" put a starter on the passenger side? And the mounting hole configuration was on a diagonal, and not straight across like most. Is it possible to put a drivers-side nose housing on the starter? Something else to research.
And the "2nd" turbo 301 frt alternator bracket that I received from the bay, wasn't correct either.

[tajoe]

Still on the alt. issue, and think it's about to be resolved. Once again, in a holding pattern, waiting for mail order. Found an NOS 301T nose housing, (for $80), and am looking for other options. Also trying to shake this end of the winter cold, I'm battling with. Almost there.

[tajoe]

Just  a quicky for now. Made time to play in the garage, to test an idea for a RHS alt. mount. It seems with some minor mods, a factory frt bracket can be altered to place the alt. to the passenger side. It looks promising, but not perfected...yet. Time will tell, once I kick this cold.

[tajoe]

!st, the alternator. Found an alt. to fit the 2nd bracket. Amazing that for some odd reason, someone decided the housing for the 301T engine had-ta be oversized...physically/dimensionally. Not sure how many ever came like this. So now it bolts in the stock location, as designed. Problem is, the top of the frt bracket doesn't fit very well under the lower 3rd gen hood. I could trim it down, if needed, if I go this route. I'm kinda liken the RHs mount option.



And next the starter. Photo below shows the wrongly acquired 301 starter, for a rhs mount. How many of these came like this? (I don't know). The 2nd one is correct, but now shows another minor problem. Once installed, the Z-bar lower lever "just" contacts the outer portion of the solenoid mount screw. You can barely see the problem in the pic.

The clearance issue can be resolved with some "adjustments" to that lower lever. It looks to be hacked from a previous owner.

[N PRGRES]

Progress!

[tajoe]

Amazing, isn't it Dave? Now I need-ta find a suppler to fill up my oxy/act, so I can put a little "tweek" to that lever. Hoping for the best, (expecting the worst) 

[N PRGRES]

Amazing, isn't it Dave? Now I need-ta find a suppler to fill up my oxy/act, so I can put a little "tweek" to that lever. Hoping for the best, (expecting the worst) 

Yes it is, now I need to get moving on some progress of my own!!!!!

[tajoe]

Got back at it. Was waiting to find a supplier for my oxy/acet. tanks, so I re-opened the path for exhaust plumbing that I dabbled with in the past, but never came to any conclusion. To make a long story short, the original factory down pipe from the turbo of the 80 car, came too close to the eng. bay unibody framing, so I ended up cutting it in half, and aiming it further towards the cowl, where the oil filter was located. (It was a bigger hole, than slightly fwd, where the lower rear a-frame mount obstructed). However, this will require an oil filter relocation kit, that is currently in the mail. Here's a few pics showing the cut-off down pipe location. I've temporarily installed an extension to it, for GPs.


In the bottom photo above, you have a clear view of the  bottom of the pipe, and where it needs to continue. The factory 305 pipe ran in frt of the frame rail, (behind the tire), and wraps around to the "outer" section of the frame, towards the rocker, and circles in heading to where the converter "would be mounted" (if I were to use it...not). The rest of the exhaust system will be stock 84.

All in all, once a custom head pipe is built from the down pipe, the rest is easy peasy. Being a turbo, the system is like a single exhaust system, and pretty straight fwd. I'm glad for the filter relocation for obvious reasons. I believe it'll work well where the battery was originally located, before shifting it to the drivers side. And I'm also happy about removing the AC evaporator box, which wouldn't allow the downpipe to be twisted back a few degrees. I'll post some pics of the oil filter kit, once installed.
P.S. Once my oxy tanks were refilled, I removed the clutch linkage Z bar, and bent the lower lever that was interfering with the starter solenoid. The lever now fits perfectly, and the linkage swings as required. Unfortunately I buried it in the the photo, but will take better pics at dissy, when all is apart for clean and paint.

[tajoe]

Being that the modified eng. bay is being accomplished, as is the T-5 install, the last major component in the system, is the rear diff. For yrs I've had my eyes open for a replacement to the hi-way geared open rear that is currently under there. Have wanted a 3.42/3.73 posi with rear discs to finish off this package, but haven't been too successful...yet. Been getting advice from the 3rd gen people, and decided with all the info tossed at me, it was time to see exactly what is under the car as of right now.

With the rear cover removed, I found the gear to be a 3.23. "Not great" for what I want, but not too far away. Disappointed in that. But also, what to my wandering eyes did appear (?), but this conbobulation of a diff unit, that I've only seen once before, and ran far away from it. It's not the all common clutch/spring/cone type posi unit that we all know and love, but what's called a "gov-loc" differential, or as I've been researching, and find out, more aptly known as a "gov/bomb" due to their inherent weakness.  One of the worst units out there, as far as durability goes. (Figures, "I" have-ta have it  ) I was curious why the diff cover had the "limited slip" tag on it. I just figured it was a fluke.
You can see the elaborate, "little tiny" components making up this unit. It looks like a Swiss watch, and about as strong. The idea is sound, but the ingredients are fragile. Really only adequate for a 4 silly winder, not a torquey V8. So it won't handle too many clutch dumps, or  powershifts. But how hard will I be driving this thing anyway? I'ld like-ta have some fun..."sometimes", W/O worrying about shrapnel.
So right now, in this state, the car is perfectly coordinated. A low HP/med torque V8, backed by a glasslined T5, and a diff. that will cruise on the hi-way fine, and a diff. unit that will grab when wanted, but won't take much abuse. (sigh)
So, it is what it is, and for now the diff will stay, until/unless I can find a suitable candidate, in the future.
Now, onto the wiring harness..mess. 

[tajoe]

So I keep procrastinating on the wiring, (cause it's not an area I'm particularly fond of) and my oil filter relocation kit came in. The exhaust pipe routing in the photo above shows the down pipe location, W/O the oil filter in place. The oil filter "could" fit there, but it would be extremely close to the can, and there wouldn't be any room to thread it off. So the only recourse was to install it in a different location. And now that the battery is repositioned to the drivers side, it's a perfect spot for the filter. I haven't got the hoses yet, but will in the future.


And there is a perfect place for the lines to be run, along the top of the frame, where you can see the fuel lines.

So now that the exhaust routing has been figured out, the clutch is working as it should, I put the brake booster back on, (temporarily) to see how it fits next to the new 301T, carb, and air filter housing. I mocked it up B4, but really didn't have it bolted in place. Here it is, and man is it close. "Almost" like it was made for it. I say that because the side of the air filter housing actually has a flat spot, to "just" clear the M/C plastic cover.I believe when the booster goes on permanently, if I put some small shims under the 2 inside studs holding it to the firewall, the whole unit will shift slightly away from the M/C.

(Gettin there.)

[scarebird]

Good to see how the air cleaner fits right in.

[FormTA]

Wow. That is close.

We may have talked about this before but I wonder if and if so how many 3rd gens were built with the 301 even as a test car. There had to be some right? I mean, it was a new platform so they had to have built early prototypes and since they were planning on using the 301, I'd think some would have to have been assembled before the change to a corporate engine was made.

[tajoe]

I hear what you're sayin Luke. I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear what the corp. execs went through, with that last minute mandate. The air cleaner base in the photos wasn't one from the 301T engine...that I can remember. And it wasn't from the 84. It was one from my scrounge, and don't know what it was off of. Wonder if any of you members have a base with a flat spot similar to it. I'ld be curious to hear.
Don't know if I mentioned, but I have a "Block" brand dist. coming this weekend. Another story for the diary.

[FormTA]

I know I have some here. I have 2 301 cars and one is fairly original. I also have a complete low mileage 301 from Larry that came out of his car. 1980? I believe. I'll take a look at all three air filter bases and see what they look like. 2 are from Trans AMs and one in my Formula.

[tajoe]

"2" 301 cars? Congrats. I hope they've been good to you. Be interesting to see if they Too have the flat spot, next to the inlet.