TAC Tech => Number Crunching => Topic started by: Chris W on January 29, 2022, 06:45:31 PM
-
It happened by accident but I found one. 1978 Pontiac Trans Am. It has been indoors the entire time and is now under boxes and other junk. I am a car guy and last owned a 1967 Le Mans so I know most of what to look for but wanted to talk to someone who knows the T/A from that era. Paint and body are in great shape. With a good bath and elbow grease it will turn heads. Its not listed for sale and wont be so please don't ask where you can find it.
Here is what I know from looking it over for a few minutes.
VIN Code 2W87Z8L171XXX
Blue on Blue, A/C, All original right down to the wheels
Automatic Transmission
Pontiac 400 (Not Olds 403) Shaker decal says T/A 6.6
2 D Coupe, not a T-top
Odometer reads 31,644 I'm guessing it is correct but could have been rolled. Wont know until I talk to the owner but I do know him.
By research I know a LOT of these cars were made in 1978. It was parked where it sits sometime in 1999 or 2000 (Registration is in the car) It was running just fine when it was parked and from what I gathered, the owner got in a motorcycle accident and never drove it again. I noticed the car when I bought the motorcycle but didn't think much about it. I was not able to pop the hood with all the junk in the way to look at the ID plate on the firewall so details about the engine are UNK. I know these cars are gaining value and I am looking to get something to fix up but not sure if this is what I want.
Number one question is: what is a respectable price to pay for this car? I have seen them listed from $10,000 to $50,000. Some in fair shape and some restored. Heck one listing was the car without a motor or trans for $9800? This car will need a complete go through before I can drop a battery in it and turn the key. Radiator, ALL the fluids, electrical may be eaten up by mice, belts, carb rebuild, plugs, wires, suspension, tires, brakes, engine rebuild, tranny rebuild, I could go on and on... Ya'll know what I'm talking about. It is going to take a good chunk of money to get this car back on the road. It is GOING TO STAY ALL ORIGINAL. I am not about to modify this vehicle. That would be a shame. Depending on what you all have to say I really think it is worth the effort. I want to make a FAIR offer and obviously get it as cheap as possible so....
Hit me with the comments and suggestions. What is a fair price for something like this after sitting up for 23 years?
-
Congratulations if you get this car. I can tell you it will always cost more money and take more time than you think. It’s would help if you posted pictures, but even someone who knows what they are talking about would want to see the car in person before giving a ball park estimate. Lots of rust could be hiding under the paint. If it’s a real TA 6.6 with original engine it will be worth more. Hopefully others here can give you a rough idea of what this car is worth.
Good luck and welcome to TAC.
-
check for chrome valve covers and 4x cylinder heads
may have the w72 engine if the shaker decal is correct
-
Thanks for the comments. Body is solid. Its a southern car so it has never seen winter weather. Trying to load you some pics but the camera in my phone takes great photos and the file size is too big to upload. Wish I had some from under the hood. I'll see if I can get some later.
-
Trying to load you some pics but the camera in my phone takes great photos and the file size is too big to upload.
There are free image resizer apps available for phones. Need to get the file size down to less than 1MB per photo to upload here, or smaller if uploading multiples.
-
Seeing if this one works
-
Here is another
-
Last one. Sorry for the multiple posts.
-
That is a really nice find!
I'm NOT a good source on pricing. I think decently restored nothing-special 78 TA's are in the mid-$20K's and special and/or extra-nice versions are higher. I paid about $5K for a similar TA but not W72 many years ago. My car had an almost rust-free body but definitley needed paint. I drove it onto a trailer but the interior was way worse. It was intact but "everything" (brakes, cooling, AC etc) needed going-through.
My guess would be 10-15 K on that car but I hope others that know better will chime in.
...
-
Thanks poncho. Good info!
-
Where are you located? location plays a big role in pricing.
In general it looks very solid but it's not a highly optioned car (I just see A/C) but if it is a W72 car it would add to the value a lot.
The prices are going up and I'll say anywhere from 5-12K depending on the condition (rust/rot)
-
I'm in Louisiana. Very low risk of rust but you never know until looking under the car and hood. I need to get back and look at the ID tag. Why is a W72 more desirable? What does that code mean?
-
W72 is the high performance engine
around that time also included the ws6 handling package
but after seeing the pictures the decals are not correct so the ta6.6 decal is probably also not correct
-
Nice find! Not sure about the market down in Louisiana, but out west here in AZ, that's easily a $8-10k car or more depending on the amount of rust and what all would need to be done to the mechanicals and interior.
If you get the VIN, you can order the documentation package from Pontiac Historical Society and they will send you a build sheet so you will know exactly what the car was born with.
As far as the W72, it was the high performance version of the Pontiac 400 rated at 220hp/320ftlbs of torque compared to 180hp/325ftlbs for the base L78 400. Actual hp for the W72 was closer to 260hp. You can identify a W72 by the engine code which is two letters stamped below the passenger side head, on the block. Google Pontiac engine codes to see where it's located. The code for a W72 should be WC or X7. I believe and other's can correct me that WC was a 4 speed and X7 was for the automatic. If it's original it should be stamped X7. Heads should be 6X-4. Again google Pontiac head codes to find the information. Here's a writeup on another site that talks a little more about the W72 option, since a lot of our information was lost with the crash.
https://www.78ta.com/Pages/w72.htm.
Some other things to look for are the T/A 6.6 stickers on the shaker vs 6.6 Litre, which this car has, although many people have replaced those over the years. Also, look under the hood for "chrome" valve covers, although the factory chrome isn't the highest quality polish and will look much duller than typical aftermarket chrome valve covers.
Other options to look for would be WS6 suspension which included stiffer springs, bigger sway bars and 8 inch snowflake wheels.
Your best bet is to order the PHS docs. Good luck on the purchase. Looks like a great starting point, although I would caution you will probably end up with a lot more money invested than the car will be worth completed, unless you can do body, paint and all the mechanical work yourself. If its a solid rust free car that is all original and a W72 car and a WS6 car being Martinique blue and originally a 30k mile car, it's probably worth $40k to the right buyer if completely redone.
-
W72 is the high performance engine
around that time also included the ws6 handling package
but after seeing the pictures the decals are not correct so the ta6.6 decal is probably also not correct
Other than all the pinstriping added to the car, what else about the decals are incorrect?
-
Chief Poncho. Thank you so much for the detailed info! This is exactly what I have been looking for to move forward with figuring this car out. I have the VIN so I will get in touch with them and also look for the other specs you pointed out. I do know off memory that this vehicle does not have the snowflake wheels, it has rally style wheels that are painted to match the car with silver accent. I need to get under the hood and see what's there.
-
Since it has rally wheels, its most likely not a WS6 car then, unless someone changed the wheels at some point. It has had the pinstriping added, that is definitely not original, although it's very period correct with lots of dealerships and owners adding stripes like that later. You could still order the W72 engine without the WS6 handling package.
-
Once I get a picture of the ID plate I will post it. Thanks again for the help.
-
the pin striping is what i was referring to as decals not correct
needs more investigation
-
Assuming the floor is solid and no rust, no rust on the body and it only needs a good polishing. Engine has low miles and just needs a refresh not a rebuild. As the car sits I would say 10k would be a fair offer price. Once the car has been refurbished and running I could see it being listed as 'original condition' with an asking price of $25k-$30k. W72 is good but auto will hold the price back. 4 speed would add at least 30% more. WS6 is a handling package if you can get underneath the car there should be a small round brace on the bottom of the stub frame near the transmission. Its about 8" long or so running on a diagonal.
Interior parts get dry rotted and brittle, some may need re-dyed or replaced. All of the int. stuff is available, so not a big deal but will add up if you start buying parts. Will most likely need a headliner, easy to replace. I would replace all lines underneath, as well as body bushings.
Good Luck, let us know how things work out.
-
That looks a lot better than I was expecting. I was going to say $5000, but that's pretty nice.
Back years ago, it was almost universal for shakers to be decaled wrong when 1978 and 79 Trans Ams were repainted, so you might say if the car is original paint, it's probably a W72 automatic. Otherwise, we don't know. These are "good" but nothing spectacular in terms of value or rarity. Just nice to have. 220 hp.
WS6 also became available in 1978, and if the wheels are original as you say, then you could go by that. WS6 cars had a few simple things that are easy to ID and most notably they had about a 7/8" swaybar where the rest of the T/A's were 5/8". They came with metric tires, and other trans ams had like a G70 or some such, so the original tire sticker in the door jamb is also clear.
You cannot ID a W72 engine by any tags on the car. You have to go by drivetrain codes and drivetrain equipment only. There's a 3.23 rear and the engine code itself, several codes of several engine parts. Transmission application code would also be different. Now that I think of it, I think the shifter is different.
-
Guys this is great 👍 You are giving all sorts of things to look for when I go back to the car for assessment. I took more pictures of the interior and looking over them I can see the panels are all there, but colors have faded and will need dye. Amazingly the headliner is fully intact and does not appear to be sagging at all.
As I get the opportunity I will compile a list, answer the questions, and re post here. Please, keep the comments coming! This is awesome 👌
-
The blue plastic is absolutely awful. The blue color didn't stop UV intrusion into the panels very well. You can see in that picture of the interior that somebody had already painted the seat back 20 or 25 years ago. The part around the rear window will typically be pretty bad even if it was in the dark since 1999. This car had louvers so that'll help.
-
From what I can see the dash looks perfect too! Big bonus. FWIW, you know old cars so this should not be surprise but the 'barn find' status will add a bit of value. Original condition cars right now seem to be preferred over restored cars.
-
Got a chance to see it again today. I have pictures of the ID plate. Was not able to get tonthe passenger side to see the stamp on the block. The valve covers were painted blue and I also saw some overspray on the intake manifold which makes me think someone did that by hand. :sad: The interior back side panels were found outside the car, and all the plastic on the inside is very brittle. One crack in the dash above the glove box. The body and undercarriage look amazing! Only some surface rust but very solid. They was some corrosion around the battery box but that is expected. Research continues on the ID plate now and I'll do what I can to answer any more questions. This has gotten me fired up about another project car. It's been too long in-between. Thanks guys! Keep the input rolling...
-
this may be too intrusive for the current owner, but if you they allow you to take the rear seat cushion off (remove reat seat bottoms then just two bolts) you may find an old build sheet behind the rear seat pad. That would be a great find to accompany the car.
Price wise, its kind of nuts right now. Apparently we all have $100k cars sitting in the garage if you've watched the auctions the last few weeks :)
-
this may be too intrusive for the current owner, but if you they allow you to take the rear seat cushion off (remove reat seat bottoms then just two bolts) you may find an old build sheet behind the rear seat pad. That would be a great find to accompany the car.
Price wise, its kind of nuts right now. Apparently we all have $100k cars sitting in the garage if you've watched the auctions the last few weeks :)
I'm sure its still there but not something I can do right now. If I get the car that is one of the first things to happen. OK guys, tell me what this means. It looks different than what I have seen.
-
Nothing useful. A blue on blue 78.
-
Chris,
If you end up purchasing this car the PHS documentation is worth it. Not cheap, maybe $200.00, I forget. For a little more you can get a duplicate window sticker, it’s nice to have. With PHS you will then know what the car was born with.
If the sheet metal and floor are good, that’s a big savings in time and money. But if you are like most of us you are not in this to make money, it’s the love of these cars.
-
I'm in it for the car. 2 weeks ago I knew nothing about them. You guys have taught me so much already in the few days since I put this thread up. I love history and owning a part of it, and the more I learn the more interesting it gets. Knowledge is power when it comes to most anything so again, thank you all.
-
Chris,
If you end up purchasing this car the PHS documentation is worth it. Not cheap, maybe $200.00, I forget. For a little more you can get a duplicate window sticker, it’s nice to have. With PHS you will then know what the car was born with.
If the sheet metal and floor are good, that’s a big savings in time and money. But if you are like most of us you are not in this to make money, it’s the love of these cars.
$85 plus another $50 if you want a reproduction window sticker. I just bought the kit without the sticker. Waiting on the email. They only email now which kind of stinks. No paper copy anymore.
-
https://www.78ta.com/Pages/vincowltag.htm
Here is a link to vin and cowl tag decoder. Nice find by the way Chris!
-
If I make the purchase I plan to get as much OEM paperwork as I can. May be able to take the downloaded file to Office Depot and have the sticker printed. I had a poster made last week for $16
-
Purchasing the sticker doesn't provide any further information that the other info doesn't have. It's just for the collection.
-
I have the original window stickers on both of the vehicles I own now. I have always kept them.
-
05C is the third week of May. Otherwise it's all color information, which you already knew. Car was built in Los Angeles. A51 was the bucket seat code and for some reason they put that code on all the Los Angeles built cars. You don't need it as bench seats weren't available.
-
I bought a very similar 78 running W72 auto non WS6 solar gold t-top with driver quality paint for $7000 about 6 years ago. I spent another $6000 on tires, exhaust, etc. freshening everything up to original stock condition. Martinique blue is desirable more rare paint. Hope this info helps and good luck in the purchase.
-
blue vinyl seats
no power windows
-
Welcome to TAC, GA78TA!