MNBob's 1979 TATA 5 Speed

[MNBob]

I contemplated using PVC instead of ABS. But I did some reading on the subject and there was no clear winner. In fact, some articles said that ABS was more durable.  Because the house was built with ABS, I just I decided to stay with that.

[MNBob]

I've been trying to make progress but there have been a lot of obstacles. The first is we have been invaded by wasps (see pic). They absolutely love my boat and made several small nests under the boat cover. I knocked all those down and looked for other nests, but didn't find any.  I took the boat to the lake and they were even dive bombing boat in the middle of the lake!

I uncrated the engine and it looks great (see picture).  My original plan was to paint the engine GM corporate blue but after seeing the engine, black and silver, I thought it might be best to leave it at that color.  I had already painted the intake manifold corporate blue so I repainted it aluminum (see photo).

The city has decided to redo our street and for two weeks we have had a dusty gravel road. The cars and everything else have been coated in dust. Fortunately, the engine is bagged and I am not about to take it out of the bag until the street is redone and there is no more dust.


Sample Wasp





 

[5th T/A]

You have far more self-control than I do, I would have uncrated the engine on the first day.

The motor looks great, in my mind it looks too good to repaint!

[roadking77]

Bob, my street is dust free, pack the motor up and send it to me. I will drop it in the tenth and let you know how it runs. When my motor is finished I will ship it back   Might not be for a few years though

[MNBob]

Engine On Stand
I finally had a day where I made it out to the garage before company came. The task was to get the engine up on the engine stand. It turned out it was easier said than done because the engine was mounted on a pallet and I could not get the engine hoist near the engine because of the pallet. 

I ended up cutting away part of the pallet and was able to get a floor jack under it to raise it up.  I also had to use engine hoist in the fully extended position, which is 500 pounds, and this made me a little uncomfortable but it worked. 

See the attached photos of the process.


Hub Attached


Engine Off Crate


Transferring to Stand


Engine On Stand

[kentucky yeti]

That's almost too pretty to hide under a hood!

[MNBob]

Water Pump
I came out one morning and noticed a couple of drops of coolant on the top of the water pump. Upon further inspection, the area on top of the pump shaft was discolored (see picture).  As much as I wanted to ignore this, I need to keep the Pontiac engine running and in good condition.  I started to disassemble and the inside of the water pump pulley was filled with gunk (see picture) so maybe this had leaked for awhile.

After the old pump was off, I observed rust on the inside of the housing (aluminum), the divider plate, and the sleeves.  The bearing in the old pump was definitely bad.  Fortunately, the housing was in good shape with no heat stress cracking.  The right sleeve came out ok, but the left one was stuck in the housing and took some effort to remove.  There is a gasket in the front of the sleeves and these had deteriorated to complete goo.

I ordered a new Milodon aluminum high flow water pump, a stainless steel divider plate, and stainless steel sleeves (see photo). I made a couple of 5/16 stainless steel pins by cutting off bolts (see photo) and used these to mount everything together.  The torque spec was 15 ft.-lbs. but after a couple of heat/cool cycles, i had to retorque.

I made the rookie mistake of throwing in the coolant and just starting in the engine without thinking about it.  Of course, it hot pocketed on me and spit a bunch of new coolant out onto the floor. After this, I was much more careful, added coolant and just brought up the engine to temperature, shut it off, cooled and repeated.  I could tell this was working as it was drawing the coolant into the engine.


Old Water Pump Stained


Gunk On Pulley


New SS Divider and Sleeves


Small Amount of Sealant On Surfaces


Fitting New Pump with Pins For Holding


Cleaned and Painted Pulley


Completed Install

[b_hill_86]

A little late for you now but for what it’s worth for any others, when I had my engine out back in the spring I had to replace a leaky water pump as well (among other things). When looking for a new pump I found Amazon sells a GMB brand pump for about half the cost of a Milodon pump and they appear to be identical parts. The milodon appears to be stamped GMB too. Both feature a cast impeller as well.

Also, you may have done this, but my block ended up bone dry inside due to the work I did. I left the heads on and pistons and rods in but I removed the timing cover and pulled the crank to replace the main and rod bearings. Needless to say from being flipped upside down and right side up several times I dumped every ounce of coolant out of it (and I couldn’t believe how much kept coming out lol). Once back together and reinstalled in the car, I popped off the heater hose off the fitting on the back of the head, tucked a rag under and filled the radiator till coolant came out of the fitting. I’ve done it that way every time I’ve pulled the engine and it seems to do a great job of pushing most if not all of the air out. Whether it was air from the heater core and hoses or a little air in the block, there wasn’t much and I didn’t have to adjust the fluid level much.

Just an FYI if you’ve never tried that.

[MNBob]

I didn’t know what to get for a pump, I have heard FlowCooler was a good one, but I looked at Summit and they didn’t have one and their other choices weren’t that great.  Then I found this Miliodon which was high flow, aluminum, and a name brand.

Wow, I could have saved myself 60 plus dollars on the pump!  They look identical to me.

That is a good tip on filling the block.  I never thought of that but I will use it the next time I need to do engine work.  It just doesn't flow from the radiator to the block unless you do some work probably because the thermostat is closed.

Thanks.

[b_hill_86]

I didn’t know what to get for a pump, I have heard FlowCooler was a good one, but I looked at Summit and they didn’t have one and their other choices weren’t that great.  Then I found this Miliodon which was high flow, aluminum, and a name brand.

Wow, I could have saved myself 60 plus dollars on the pump!  They look identical to me.

That is a good tip on filling the block.  I never thought of that but I will use it the next time I need to do engine work.  It just doesn't flow from the radiator to the block unless you do some work probably because the thermostat is closed.

Thanks.

It actually does flow from the bottom coolant hose from the radiator into the block. I think that’s why it does so well expelling a good amount of air. I’ve always done so as a last step before firing the engine with t-stat in place.

For what it’s worth, I had no idea what pump I wanted either. Just ran across that GMB and tried it. Didn’t even know it was aluminum until I received it and discovered the comparison to the milodon

[MNBob]

Engine Painting
I went back-and-forth about what color to paint the engine. First I thought a black and silver color scheme would be good and match how the engine came. But after thinking about this, I decided to go back to the old standard of GM corporate blue.  I am really used to this after having a car all these years and all black and silver would be boring.


Ready To Paint 1


Ready To Paint 2


Painted 1


Painted 2


Unmasked with Valve Covers

[5th T/A]

Bob, I am not sure there is any right or wrong answer for color. The blue looks great.

Now you need someone to make an aluminum plague to put over the Chevrolet lettering on the rocker arm covers. Then next summer when you have the hood open at a car show; someone walks up, looks at the engine and says “ I didn’t know Pontiac made a 502”.

[highway star]

Which GMB water pump (400ci)? Standard Volume 1301280AL or High Volume/Pressure 1301280P.
Thanks!

[MNBob]

I don't know if I would fool anyone anyhow as the heads have little bowties in each end (see pic).  Still, I am happy with the corporate blue for the look of a Pontiac instead of the Chevy red or orange.

I used a Milodon pump that was listed as high volume so it would probably be equivalent to the latter one.  Here is the Amazon link:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000COO208/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[MNBob]

Intake Manifold Install
Because I was concerned about the hood scoop fitting under the hood, I purchased the lowest profile intake manifold made for a big block Chevy.  This intake was used on the 1969 Corvette 427, 435 hp engines.  It is a new reproduction of that manifold.

I trial fit the new manifold. The outer bolt tabs hit the valve covers and gaskets (see photos).  This was not a problem as there was generous material on the tabs and so I just ground off the ends (see photo).  Also the outer bolt holes were off center especially on one side so I use the die grinder to enlarge them toward the engine center.

The intake bolts for a 502 are a quarter inch longer (1.5 inches) than the standard big block Chevy.  I measured the hole depth on all blind holes to ensure the bolts would not bottom out.  Eight of the head bolt holes are blind and the other eight are open or semi open.  The ARP 435-2102 was a nice intake bolt set with stainless steel 12 point bolts and washers.

I had some 3/8 x 16 x 1” stainless hex studs (see alignment photos) and used these on the outer holes to hold the intake gaskets in place while I did the installation.  Chevys have a gap at the each end of the intake manifold (see pics).  I applied Permatex ultra black with a thick bead to each end before setting the intake.  The threads on the bolts in the open holes were covered with thread sealant and those for the blind holes were covered in anti-seize.


Manifold Valve Cover Interference and Bolt Mis-Alignment #1


Manifold Valve Cover Interference and Bolt Mis-Alignment #2


Ear Material Removed


Rear Gap


Front Gap


Installed Side View


Installed End View

[MNBob]

Oil Pan Part 1
The 502 motor came with a truck oil pan that was not only deep in the sump area, but deep all along its length.  This pan would not fit in most cars, so I ordered a Milodon 30975 pan for my application.  Milodon described this as an extra low-profile pan that would also fit big blocks in 55 to 57 Chevys (see photo of description).

The pan was listed as a 6 quart pan plus capacity for filter. I test filled the pan with 6 quarts of water to see what the level would be (see photo).

The 502 also came with a windage tray that was anchored off of studs on the center main cap bolts (see photos).  Ultimately, I ended up not using this tray as it would not fit with the new set up.  I was also concerned that the main cap studs would not allow the oil pan to fit.  A quick measurement revealed that the new pan would clear the studs by about a quarter inch.  Hats off to Milodon for this design.

Because the new pan was shallower, I had to order a new oil pump pick up that was also shorter. However, I could not install this pick up in the old pump because the old pick up was welded to the pump.  So at this point I had to stop and order a new oil pump for the new pick up.


New Milodon Pan


Pan Box Label


6 Quarts in Pan


Original Pump and Windage Tray


Main Cap Studs


Pan Comparison


Old and New Pickup

[5th T/A]

Funny, on the surface changing to a different oil pan seems like it would be straight forward but like a lot of things turns into a project. The Milodon pan looks like a quality part.

[MNBob]

Oil Pan Part 2
The new oil pump came in and I installed the new shorter pick up into it (see photo).  The Milodon suggested installation was to use a hammer.  You can see my marks on the square part of the pick up.  Milodon did not recommend welding the pick up. Instead, there was an arm on the pick up that attached to one of the oil pump cover bolts.

After looking at the set up, the one thing I didn't like was the plastic coupler on the intermediate rod oil pump driveshaft.  I really don't want anything plastic in my engine so I ordered a new intermediate drive rod with a metal coupler (see photo).

I measured the pan and block for clearance to the pick up and came up with 3/8 of an inch. Then I put tinfoil on the top of the pick up and pushed the pan on and measured 3/4 of an inch. This was fine for me as the pan bolts would draw the pan up much closer.

The oil pump was primed and tested in a bucket and then installed.  I put a thin bead of Permatex ultra black on the oil pan gasket and installed the pan.


Pick Up Tube Installed in New Oil Pump


Oil Pump Driveshaft with Metal Coupler


Testing Pick Up Depth


Priming and Testing Pump


Sealing Pan


Pan Installed

[roadking77]

Typical of your work Bob, Looks fantastic and nice and clean.

[MNBob]

Sniper Issue
I came out one morning and took the car to run an errand.  It started fine, but halfway down the block it started to run rough. I could barely make it around the block and back home and the air fuel ratio was pegged at 35.6!  It was smoking as well.

I Googled 35.6 and came up with a lot of hits.  Apparently I'm not the only one that this has happened to. The consensus was that the oxygen sensor probably needed replacing.  Others said maybe a bad ECU.

A new Holley oxygen sensor was $133 at holley.com.  I read that an identical Bosch sensor was available at efisystempro.com and was only $70.  So I ordered one from there.

It was pretty easy to replace.  I did notice there was quite a bit of oil underneath the car and it appears that the right valve cover is leaking at the rear.  I just replaced the left two times in the last four years but left the right alone because it wasn't leaking.  Guess I have some work to do.

The car started up and run ran fine. The air fuel ratio was back to normal. I drove it the next day and there was a minor hiccup in the AFR but then it went back to normal and was OK from then on.


Problem Air Fuel Ratio


Bosch Sensor


Old Carboned Sensor


Wire Tied Up Away From Header

[scarebird]

How far back is that oxygen sensor?

[MNBob]

It's in the collector reducer pipe.  See below at top.  It is hard to tell from the picture, but it does have an incline angle upward as called for.


O2 Location in X Pipe

[scarebird]

mnnh.

It may be too far from the engine.

[MNBob]

I really don't know.  I am going to have to get used to this EFI system and see how long these last. 

At least, it is better than rebuilding the Q-jet every 3 to 4 years.

[ryeguy2006a]

Looks good Bob, glad you got the O2 fixed. It's pretty common those sensors fail. It almost seems that once they get a little fouled, they will fail shortly afterwards. One thing that you can do on the laptop is to turn down the learn % once the tune is solid. That way if the sensor goes bad in the future, it will only add up to say 10% fuel, rather than 50% fuel.

[tajoe]

Forget about the electronics, look at those "pipes!". (Thinking of the line from Bill Cosby's album...200MPH)
That is one sweet looking H/X pipe. Custom, or off the shelf?

[MNBob]

Ryan, after the O2 replacement, I went and pulled the right bank of spark plugs for a look.  The porcelain tips and the base rings were sooty indicating a rich condition.  The contact electrodes looked good indicating the ignition system was handling this pretty well.

I went to the Sniper settings and adjusted the air fuel ratio's. Upon initial installation of the Sniper, I just used the factory default settings.  So now I increased the cruise AFR from 14 to 15.5.  I also increased the idle AFR from 13.5 to 14.0.  The wide-open throttle setting was left at 13.  See the photo below.

Joe, those are mostly Pypes pipes.  I was able to get stainless steel ball and socket reducers with O2 bungs from Summit.  My welding skills aren't that great, so I brazed the X pipe together.  When I replaced the O2 sensor, I inspected the pipe for leaks and found none.  One of the Hedman headers is longer than the other so that's why the front is different lengths.


Sniper AFR Settings

[MNBob]

Valve Cover Gasket
I know this isn't the most fascinating subject, but sometimes you have to do projects like this.  When I was under the car, I noticed oil on the bottom of the transmission, on the right header, and around the oil filter.  This led me to believe the valve cover gasket on the right side was leaking.

Changing the right valve cover gasket is a lot easier now that the air conditioning is removed.  About the only thing to move is the dipstick tube.  I pulled the valve cover and the gasket came off with the cover.  I put it on the bench under a bright light and examined the gasket.  The head had made about a 16th of an inch impression in the gasket and I could easily see that oil had gotten past this impression to the outside on the bottom and back of the cover.

There was no oil present on the top side of the gasket or on the front edge.  I pulled the gasket out of the valve cover and found no oil between the gasket and the valve cover.

I cleaned all surfaces and wiped them down with grease and wax remover.  Then I used Permatex Ultra Black on the valve cover gasket (see photos).

The bolt torque spec for Pontiac valve covers is 8 foot pounds.  My 3/8” drive torque wrench will go down near that spec, but I really don’t trust it.  So I have always just used judgment on the cover bolts.

This time I wanted to have an exact measurement with a torque wrench.  A micro torque wrench at my local building supply was $60.  I found one at Harbor Freight for $19, a no brainer (see pic).  I set the torque rating on it to 5 foot pounds and that seemed enough to me with the aluminum valve covers.  I also checked this setting by hand and it seemed plenty.


Smear of Sealant on Cover


More Sealant on Gasket to Head


Harbor Freight Torque Wrench


Cover Back On

[tajoe]

I'm so confused Bob. I'll have-ta admit, altho I've been following along, I haven't read every single post. I can 't for the life of me, figure out why you're showing pics of a BBC, "AND" a Pontiac motor, in the same breath.
"Am I on candid camera?"

[MNBob]

Good question, others may be wondering as well.  The short answer is it has been a very busy year.

It started off with the plumbing repairs on the Minnesota house which kind of morphed into painting the downstairs.  In May, we sold our Florida condo that we have owned for 20 years.  About a month later, we bought a new home in Florida.  There has been and continues to be a lot of work with this change of residence.

I do whatever I can on the car whenever I can get the time.  But it is a hobby and I don’t fret about it.  So the plan Is to keep the TA running the best it can be for now and do the engine change next year.

In another note, my changes above to the Sniper AFR ratio were a disaster.  The car surged and ran poorly.  If I had time to play around with it, I would do those changes one at a time or maybe in different increments.  But for now it is back to where it was.

[tajoe]

Good question, others may be wondering as well.  The short answer is it has been a very busy year.
In another note, my changes above to the Sniper AFR ratio were a disaster.  The car surged and ran poorly.  If I had time to play around with it, I would do those changes one at a time or maybe in different increments.  But for now it is back to where it was.

You still didn't answer, why two motors?
Does that mean you'll put the QJ back on?

[MNBob]

Well actually, I have contemplated going back to the QJet, but what I mean above is I went back to the original Sniper AFR settings before I adjusted them leaner the other day.  It ran fine after that.

The plan is to replace the 270HP Pontiac motor with the 508HP Chevy in 2023.

[MNBob]

I am back from Florida and now in Minnesota.  Selling the Florida condo and moving into a new home was a ton of work and a lot of expense.  However, we did accomplish all of our goals with the new place.  I did all the work myself except we had the lanai screened in before we left. 

So being tired and poor, no engine swap for this year.  Instead, I am going to focus on all the little things I have put off to do bigger projects.  Control arm bushings and T-Top seals are two projects that come to mind, but I am sure there will be others.

Since no one likes a post with no pics, here is a photo of the view out the screened in lanai at the new home:

[tajoe]

Doesn't look like Minn. to me, Bob.

[5th T/A]

Bob, we all know life is all about priorities. Florida home has a beautiful view, sure beats shoveling snow in the winter.

I enjoy following your post and admire your work on the 502 engine upgrade. Looking forward reading and seeing more when you can get back to it!

[FormTA]

I might have to move to Minnesota too! looks amazing!

[roadking77]

Beautiful and relaxing. I love FLA, my family has shallow roots there. My grandparents started going back in the late 20's, spent the winter and came back north. Still have lots of long lost relatives there as well as currently cousins that have followed the footsteps and moved there. Where is your new place? My grandparents lived in Hollywood, and I spent many a winter there growing up. It was a small town then and safe for a 8 yo kid to spend the day wandering the streets. Mom and dad bought a place in Port Charlotte, and the setting was identical to the pic you show. It was a really nice place as well. She sold after dad died regretibly. Cousins in the villages and crystal river.

[Zach]

I might have to move to Minnesota too! looks amazing!

MN positives, won’t need AC in summer, fun to cruise around not much traffic and restrictions, looks good in fall and summer, spring can be nasty.
MN negatives, snow, snow, pot holes, snow, rust on all classics.
Snow does give a good time frame to work on the car and not regret taking it apart since you can’t drive it anyway.
Couldn’t imagine living elsewhere though!

[FormTA]

Ya, I live in Ohio and I have to travel north to MI or the UP to find good snow (we put 1200 miles a year on snowmobiles). The weather change in this area is pretty good as you said to get things done. We are on the water in the summer, the shop in the fall and on the snow in the winter, we keep busy!

I think I'd like to live in FL later but the bugs and gators in ever spit of water aren't too attractive though. Warm weather is nice.

[MNBob]

Our Florida home is in Naples.  If your thinking about Florida, there are a lot of places that are less expensive and offer a more temperate climate.  This last winter was the hottest we have ever had.

With regard to Minnesota, it is a lot of snow shoveling (or blowing) in the winter. The traffic in the metro area is also very heavy, and when it snows, it becomes a complete gridlock.  You can live here in the winter, and I have for most of my life, but if given a choice you'd go south.

My wife wanted to come home for Christmas this year to have a family Christmas.  Of course, it was a cold spell for our time here.  One of the days we were home, the high temperature was 12 below zero.

The amount of salt used on the roads spells doom for cars after about 10 years.  I guess it is the perfect system for the car manufacturers.  The only reason my TA survived was because I only drove it two winters.  It did pick up a bit of rust, but I have since eliminated it.  There was literally nothing left of my 1980 Suburban body by the time I junked it!