TAC Spotlight => Projects & Restorations => Topic started by: tajoe on July 31, 2022, 07:41:20 AM
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Well people, the attempt is being made. I'm determined now to try and get at least one of my T/As on the priority list. I've put them off long enuff, while struggling thru life with balancing work and raising family duty's, along with everyday chores of maintaining and fixing the list of worn out possessions we all have. Nothing new, you've all been there.
Between the 4 vehicles I have, (83 C-30 6.2 diesel stick shift dually, runs but rotted out, 93 2500 also 6.2 diesel, my work truck right now, my 73 T/A needing...everything, and my 84, 305 TH700 T/A), the 84 has the best chance of succeeding. The body is pretty good, with no rot, and the interior is tolerable. It had been garaged most of its life, but the tranny went away, and that's when I inherited it. Altho I've owned it for close to 10 years, I've never had it registered or driven, due to the tranny. I've kept it waxed and covered, with some of those years being stored outside. It has shown a bit of deterioration, but nothing that can't be cleaned up. So the 84 has the 1st nod.
Many people are probably saying, "Why put the 301T into the car? The chevy motor has more potential," or "Why ruin the originality of the car, by bastardizing it"? Or "If you're a Pontiac fan, why not a 400, or 455?" All are legit and accurate opinions. But for me, my reasoning is, I already have the car, and the engine. I'm not looking to be the fastest, or most powerful anymore. Those days are behind me. Plus the retirement finances have to be taken into consideration. My goal is to put together what Pontiac wanted to do in 82, but was squashed by GM. I won't make it the way the government would've mandated the car be built, with emissions, and all the other corporate restrictions, but something close enuff to resemble what a gear-head would've done to the car, to make it a little better performer. We all know the limitations of the little 301T motor, and I plan to do some up-grades to it, at some point in time. I love the fact, the power-bulge hood is functional, and the 301T places the QJ right under it, the way it was intended to be at Pontiac. But in the end, I would like the car to at least run 14s at the track, and would be thrilled if it'll touch the 13s. And because the 80-81 cars were so God awful heavy, and strapped with an automatic, 3.08s, and emissions, I think those numbers are do-able W/O lots of performance mods. Besides, the 84 is almost, (if not) 500lbs lighter. And with a T-5, and better rear gears, it's gutta help.
So, with all that being said, I have done a few things since spring, and am in the middle of figuring out the hydraulic clutch system. In a bit, I'll post some pics of where I'm at, and hopefully some of you might enjoy it. But please be patient, because, I'm still working for a living and "free" time, isn't so available. More to come.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/joes%20pontiacs/84TAT301/.highres/efeb119d-e9cf-4885-bf63-46574f042fb9_zpsccfa4715.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/bdb5125b-71c1-40ae-a9f9-74589c0d41ba)
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I like it. Something different for the sake of being different. Kinda like one guy I saw that put a 400 in an LS 4th gen if I remember right. Good luck to you and I’ll be following along!
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I like the idea, looking forward to seeing progress.
Tom H
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Hello Brian and Tom, so B4 I get back out there to the garage, I'll post a few pics for the interested.
In the 3rd gen category, I posted just a quick blurb about swapping the P/W regulators, over to mechanical ones, due to both motors blown, and no battery. So for years, I've been worried about water getting into it, because the RHS window was down an inch. Always had it tarped, and car covered, and have kept the water out, but it doesn't breath well, under a tarp, as we all have learned. With the mech, regulators, it's so nice to be able to crank the windows up and down at will, W/O the need for electricity. And even tho the car came with P/W, I swapped out the grey interior many years ago, that was all beat up, and found a salvaged car with a beige color interior, that I installed, to clean it up. But the donor car didn't have P/W. So the door panels were cut for cranks, which I left in place, to keep the holes filled. Now that I own it, and am not a fan of junk window motors, and problematic switches, I can now use the available window cranks, that have been un-functioning, after all these years. The old reliable mechanical regulators work fine. The donor car even had a stick shift, and I was able to confiscate the pedals, and console when removing the interior, so I now have the right console for the T-5, and no holes for the P/W switches.
I wish I had enuff fore-thought to look at the clutch system. (Maybe I did and forgot). Not sure what yr the car was I scabbed from, and don't remember if it had a mech. Z-bar linkage for the clutch, or hyd. That's where I'm at now, and will share some photos when I get to a good point. My "biggest" concern now, (and might need some help from you guys), is whenever I try and post pics here, I get error codes. So I'm gunna run a test right now, and see if I can post something. Here goes.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/joes%20pontiacs/84TAT301/.highres/84TAT301003.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/bb453/tajoe/joes%20pontiacs/84TAT301/.highres/84TAT301003.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
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I can agree with the power windows thing a bit. I have them in my 77, and they do work ok, but I almost wish I just had manual.
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I just spent 15 mins with a reply. After writing, I attempted to load a pic from my computer but the error code said, "file too large". So I went to PB, (as I just did above), and loaded a similar photo, and once again, the site wouldn't let me post it. Said it was too large. (From Photo bucket). It just took one this morning. And to top it off, when I went back, my post was erased. Not very happy right now. :-x <-(Gee, at least I can show one of these stupid little guys)
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I’m not super familiar with photobucket anymore. It’s been years since I’ve used it. As for your issues, I don’t have an easy answer either but I’ve experienced the same thing and lost posts I gave up on. What I try now is to make my post without the picture then go back and click modify and try to add the picture. Only thing I can offer is there is a size limit of trying to add directly to the site and at least on my iPhone, it allows me to choose a size (sometimes) when I’m adding it. Not sure about other phones or computers off hand.
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I love this idea for the powerplant! Love seeing projects with clear goals! One thing I've always wondered about these engines is specific to the turbo. Has there been any kind of development for a modern turbo replacement? Or at the least upgraded impellers? I know that the engine's have their limitations, but I'll bet you could significantly improve efficiencies with the motor.
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Joe is the guy here with all the good stuff, and he's also with the 301 garage forum that has all the specifics on this engine.
https://ttaperformance.com/
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Got the clutch master cylinder mounted yesterday, and I can think of 100 things I'ld've rather done. Such as had my fingernails, and toenails all yanked out, one at a time. Not fun being under the dash, with limited space. I'm gunna do a test...(again), and see if I can get a photo to post, "W/O" an error code. Here goes.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Hyd_clutch_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/4bd18d9f-4184-4943-ac1a-0633f93aec45)
And now, to try another, and add it here.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Hyd_clutch_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/907a0f1e-24b9-4e35-a2ba-341daf247b23)So far, so good...maybe. Now to try and post.
Hey, how sweet it is.
Now to explain the pics.
The system above, is a third gen stock one, with all the parts. The white plastic reservoir, bracket, and hose, to the M/C and pedal rod, and finally the hose going to the slave cylinder. The fork pushrod, and boot is not in the pic, but it is here.
I've tried for weeks to find some-one (on the other brand X forum), who knew exactly how, and where to place this M/C, but came up M/T handed. There were a couple that had some info, but wasn't pertinent to my application. (they had alternate or aftermarket parts). And I wasn't sure if my pedals were correct for the hyd. system, thinking the linkage hole in mine was for a manual set-up. So I "too" had-ta start from scratch, to locate the center of the M/C.
-I started by measuring the distance of the stock M/C and rod, in the extended position, from the hole center, to the firewall flange. Approx 9". (I also pushed the rod in, just to see the travel. Approx. an inch)
-I then cut a piece of 5/16ths threaded rod, bent 1 end on a 90°, for the pedal connection, and cut the rod a couple inches short of the firewall.
-If you'll notice in the pics above, you'll see a white tube, with the rod in it. The tube is 1" PVC, which I copied the same angle the MC flange has, and cut the tube to the same length as the M/C.
Previously I had used another rod, the same length as the extended M/C rod to the firewall flange, and used it as a rough guide to where the hole center on the FW should be. By placing it in the pedal hole, and moving it into position, I marked an X on the F/W. This is now where the white tube is taped to above. (The tape is only there to hold it up, for photo purposes. Can't hold it, and take pictures, at the same time)
The masking tape tied around the rod, is to show the engagement of the rod, into the M/C tube, while in the fully extended position. Then I shove the pedal to the floor, and remarked the rod with tape, to show the amount of travel the rod will have. It was just at an inch, which is how much is in the M/C. "Theoretically", it should work.
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Next came a cardboard template of the M/C flange, to locate the holes on the FW. I know it's not professional, but neither am I.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Hyd_clutch_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/10909a23-e626-4817-8443-227b07666921)
Once I drilled the flange holes, I marked the center, (and confirmed my previous marks) then used an 1" and a 1/2 hole saw. the FW is made of tin, and it went thru easy. (Another concern to be addressed later)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Hyd_clutch_007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/42ffd276-2364-425f-9c54-811a0fd298d6)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Hyd_clutch_008.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/1a319478-a7ec-47e5-88be-88b6c2784371)
Altho it looks real nice, of course it need some die-grinding (about a 1/4") with a carbide burr, to "adjust" the fit. :(
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If you'll notice in the pic below, the M/C needs a clearance "dent" that was already provided by the factory, (under the hood) in the wheel well.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Hyd_clutch_012.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/679d42db-92ab-48e5-a179-55c710147aab)
With the temporary bolts in place, the M/C was resting on the metal of the wheel well, so I had-ta hog out the hole centers a bit to the pass. side, to clear it. Once in place the alignment was pretty good, but will need a bit of finesse at final assy. All this is preliminary fitting, with the finale test being the system actually disengaging the clutch.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Hyd_clutch_011.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/5ad35cdb-423a-4bd7-901a-db2ed4dc61d8)
And in this last picture below, if you can see the silver nut and bolt holding the pushrod into the pedal. I litterally spent an hr trying to get it into place. With all the surrounding obstructions, it was an absolute nightmare.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Hyd_clutch_010.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/0a62d190-7541-4742-b101-aa963bf97639)
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So that's where the car is at, at this point. I can't believe the engineers put this M/C on the angle they did. My guess, is because everything is so tight on the firewall, they had no choice? I know it wasn't for efficiency of design, that's for sure. But the pedal does move the pushrod a full inch, even with the 45° angle. I would've preferred a more direct placement of the pushrod, but it's just not possible.
Next is to pull the motor, and start fitting mounts for the Pontiac.
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As others have said, I like the idea of putting a turbo 301 in your 1984 TA. This is what Pontiac would have done if GM didn't pull the plug on the 301. This is why early 3rd Gen TA's had the offset hood bulge. Obviously, when Pontiac built the 301 T, they were at a disadvantage not having modern electronic controls for engine timing, fuel flow and knock detection. Since my car came with a NA 301, I tried to join 301 Garage. I always got a message saying "registration is disabled". Regardless, they have a lot of good 301 information. Joe from TTA Performance is the guru on these turbo motors. I think he has a streetcar running 12.80's on ethanol without going into the engine.
Hang in there, I would love to see this project finished!
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I love this! Can't wait for more. I love unconventional builds. This is going to be cool and real Pontiac guys will get a kick out of it. You have to advertise the 4.9 turbo somewhere whis an emblem too!
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Hey guys, glad to see you're interested. 5th, sorry to hear the garage won't let you in. wonder why? I know the site has been around for quite some time, but don't think there are a lot of us who actually know about the 301 mill. I'm sure they're getting scarcer by the day. I'm just glad that Joe R. is still keeping the website alive.
And Luke(?), I plan on putting the 301T badging, just as it should've. Probably will do the paint theme of the 81 T/A car. Even wanna use the turbo hood bird, just for that "retro" look. The hood is the same width, but the length a little shorter on the 84.
(Wonder if I can post a photo of it?)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/turbo_bird.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/e0d471b2-ff0f-415d-aecf-0be7817fac36)
This 81 maroon, and gold hood chicken just..."make my day". :grin: It may take a bit of trimming, but think it can be done.
I know I have a "long way" to go, but hey, you gutta have a dream, right?
I'm taking a personal day today, and had a bit of time to post on this thread. Hopefully I can get the motor out soon, to show some progress, but also have other household "duties" that need attention. Trying to balance it all. Hang in there men, and thanks for the inspiration. I now have-ta get in the cellar, and work on my oil fired furnace. "B4" I need it. :?
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Im glad to see a third gen getting a little love. They are my favorite as far as body design goes. I particularly like the ones with an aero skirt, i.e. your 84. Was that an option for that year? I thought 85 was the first year that they came stock that way. I had an 82 firebird and an 85 trans am, def will be following along with this one.
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RK, I "too" am a fan of the body design of the "early" 3rd gens. 'Specially like the power-bulge hood. (With the QJ under it.) Other pluses are the elimination of a quarter ton of weight. Not a fan of the drive-trains tho. How-ever, because the 301T isn't know to be a tire shredder, (and the fact I won't be driving it that way), I think with the T-5, and the torque tubed 10 bolt, it will all balance out. With the areo-dynamics of the body, and the 5 speed ,and a decent set of gears, I think it'll be a fun streeter.
As for the ground effects, I'm still not savvy on these cars, but I do believe the pkg started in the 84 model. At least I know this car is all stock. Not sure about it being optional or not. Thanks for chiming in.
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That picture of the maroon body and gold hood bird look perfect for each other!
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I think that combo will be perfect. I too have no desire to race, as long as my car gets along with traffic I am fine. I am a minority in that I dont think a car needs 700+hp. I have not 'studied' the third gen, just remember them well when they were new. The 82 and 83 had really small flares in front of the tires, I dont remember much of a front air dam. The 83 Daytona (my dream car,lol) had an aero package similar to what is on your car. I thought the 84 had the same as the 82 and 83 and what your car had was an upgrade, I could be wrong with that one though. 85 was changed altogether and was a bit bulkier, but looked great. I think 84 was the last year for the bulge hood as well. 85 the whale tale was an option, I think the flat deck spoiler like on your car was gone by 86 along with the addition of the third brake light. Sorry, for the rant.
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That picture of the maroon body and gold hood bird look perfect for each other!
I thought so too, Mike. I've always wanted a maroon GTO, with a white interior, but has never materialized. This 84 has the saddle color interior, and with this (81 only) deep dark rich maroon, (forgot what Pontiac called it), think the combo still works. But once again, got a "long" way to go B4 getting there.
I cleared a hole in my garage, and dug out another eng. stand, so now I have a place to put the anemic 305, when I yank it out...next. Rather than trying to stuff the complete 301T motor to fit the mounts, think I'm gunna drag out either an empty 72 455 block, or a 73 400 block, to compare the eng. mount bolt hole locations, to the 301 motor. Not sure if there's a difference from 1980, to the early 70s. My last 557 block went away, but I really don't think there's a difference. But I need-ta check, just for my own piece of mind. Figure it'll be easier to maneuver an M/T block on the K frame to align the mounts, rather than an entire eng.
I think that combo will be perfect. I too have no desire to race, as long as my car gets along with traffic I am fine. I am a minority in that I dont think a car needs 700+hp. I have not 'studied' the third gen, just remember them well when they were new. The 82 and 83 had really small flares in front of the tires, I dont remember much of a front air dam. The 83 Daytona (my dream car,lol) had an aero package similar to what is on your car. I thought the 84 had the same as the 82 and 83 and what your car had was an upgrade, I could be wrong with that one though. 85 was changed altogether and was a bit bulkier, but looked great. I think 84 was the last year for the bulge hood as well. 85 the whale tale was an option, I think the flat deck spoiler like on your car was gone by 86 along with the addition of the third brake light. Sorry, for the rant.
700 HP would be fine, if you were at the drags, with slicks. On the street, there's only so much you can get to the ground, even with modern tire technology. I'm not a fan of this "lets race, from a rolling start, at 50 MPH". And then explain that one to the officer in the un-marked car, and the Mrs., why you lost your license going over 100, and your ins. company now drops you. I don't mind a little "spirited" driving, but with HP over 400, it's pretty easy to get into trouble. And if you're not gunna use it, why spend the money on it? To each his own, I guess.
And RK, you mentioned a "Daytona" package in 83. That's how much I know about these 3rd gens. Don't even know what that car is. I'll have-ta Google it after. But the Power bulge hood did continue after 85, (I believe) but think they were only used on the Formulas, not the T/A. Maybe (?)
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B4 I go any further, I just want to "document" what I did a few weeks back. Just to get it listed in my "up-grade". Because the 301T down-pipe is a close fit in the chassis, I decided to remove the AC system off of the car. I know the southern crowd won't be pleased, but here in New-England, there's not much of a need. Not like the south anyway. It does get hot here in the summers, for a few weeks, but I'm use-ta not having it, so I would rather have the room under the hood, and less weight and maintenance. Besides, the car has T-tops, that I don't plan on doing away with.
Always cracked me up that chevy went and put their compressors on the drivers side, and had-ta route the hosing to the evaporator on the other side. Lots of un-necessary lengths of hoses. I had already purchased a std blower housing years ago, and decided to dive into removing the existing evaporator, and installing the heater housing. All in all, it didn't go too bad. (Much better than that obnoxious hyd clutch M/C) And it is so much more accessible back there now. Will have-ta make the connections under the dash, and temp. control panel at a later date.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_AC_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/906a4ebf-687b-45c9-acbf-2b4fd20bb1ac)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_AC_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/1ecbb2ca-a0bc-4d60-9c05-347820e1f206)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_AC_007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/b3826847-c040-4d0b-8bf7-2ee950217e7e)
I know none of it is pretty. but for the time being, just trying to get everything fitted. The bottom pic looks so much better with the removal of not only the evaporator, but the hoses and compressor too. I haven't hacked anything removed from this car, and am boxing all the junk up, for.......? (I have no clue why. I'll never use it.)
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Yesterday, I took some measurements from the 72 455 block, and compared them to the 80 301T block, and find that the mount holes are the same pattern. As a matter of fact, the 72 has "2" provisions for mounts. I'm guessing the other set is for a full size chassis, and not just the A, or F bodies. But the 301T only accepts one mounting.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/block_mounts_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/88999143-bf02-4836-9531-7ef4721c59d3)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/block_mounts_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/0fe84b18-84fe-4de6-92c7-81ce87bea147)
Next, get the 305 out, and fit the mounts, using the 455 as a "template" only. Once I get the mounts on the K-frame, then I'll drop in the 301, just to see what it looks like.
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Congrats on getting your project moving! I'm interested to follow along too.
I'll be honest, the early 3rd Gen's are my least favorite F-Bodies. That said...I love the idea of installing a 301T under the hood...It's gonna be very cool!
When I first bought my 81 Turbo it had a rebuilt 301T that the previous owner said 'had some work done' to it. That engine ran really weil and it pulled very nicely once the turbo got spinning. And, the turbo sounds...Ahh...music to my ears. The Pontiac 301T was good enough to get me hooked on, turbos back in the day.
Here's a pic of the engine that was in my '81 when I bought it in '90:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4365/36872907461_43782ca0c0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YbkhKP)TA-Turbo 301 Turbo_zps3rpl2wdy (https://flic.kr/p/YbkhKP) by Tom Sherer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152255092@N02/), on Flickr
Good luck! I'm looking forward to following along.
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Why not use the 301 mounts? they are the superior clamshell type.
Test fit the 301: mark or tack weld the lowers to the subframe, remove the engine and bolt right to the frame.
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I haven't been on TAC for a while but I'm glad I logged on today and saw this. I'm very excited and happy to see you doing some work Mr. GTO, I just need to find the time and read all of the posts and follow along 😊
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Why not use the 301 mounts? they are the superior clamshell type.
Test fit the 301: mark or tack weld the lowers to the subframe, remove the engine and bolt right to the frame.
Absolutely SB. If you'll look at the photo above, (of the nasty dirty 301T motor), you'll see the mount brackets still on the eng.
When I pull the 305 out, I'm "hoping" the 301 will drop onto the factory location of the SBC mounts. I've taken some really crude measurements, and they look very close. Remember, there's only a couple years difference from the motor and chassis, so what are the odds of it bolting onto them, with no mods? (Probably not very good). There have been a few people who have popped these Pontiac mills into 3rd gens, and I know quite a few talk about adapters, re-locating, and rewelding, and other ideas, but I don't know. I know for a fact, the eng. brackets fit right on the 84 T/A mounts. But the mount location on the K-frame may have to be altered. Time will tell. I'll keep you guys posted, cause it won't be too long, when I yank the SBC.
I haven't been on TAC for a while but I'm glad I logged on today and saw this. I'm very excited and happy to see you doing some work Mr. GTO, I just need to find the time and read all of the posts and follow along
Howdy Jack, glad you're back. Sucks, working for a living, don't it? Who ever invented this system anyway? They need-ta be shot. Thanks for the moral support, and hopefully you can get back into yours soon too. Someday, I hope you, your sons, and I will be cruising with our F/Bs together. (Before we're all suckered into mandatory EVs :-x
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Why not use the 301 mounts? they are the superior clamshell type.
Test fit the 301: mark or tack weld the lowers to the subframe, remove the engine and bolt right to the frame.
Absolutely SB. If you'll look at the photo above, (of the nasty dirty 301T motor), you'll see the mount brackets still on the eng.
When I pull the 305 out, I'm "hoping" the 301 will drop onto the factory location of the SBC mounts. I've taken some really crude measurements, and they look very close....
It should not - SBC mounts are mounted forward on the engine - BOP in the middle. I made a point to mount the L84 in my 71 middle of the block so I can pull clutches, etc without supporting the engine. Note the 3 holes forward on the crossmember - those are the "old school" Chevy mount holes.
(https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=586756&stc=1&d=1647824151)
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6328227&postcount=46
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Man! Look at how nice and "clean" that frame is. (I'm envious)
So what frame and motor are we lookin at here SB?
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A couple years ago I did a frame off of my 1971 Lemans Sport. The frame was blasted, rewelded in some spots then powder coated. A better shot of the frame - note the two different mount hole constellations.
(https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=586754&stc=1&d=1647824050)
I am putting in a 2020 L84 (5.3) crate motor. This was refitted with a LT1 cam and AFM delete kit. Still has the VVT and of course direct injection. This is coupled to a Tremec TKX and hydraulic clutch. Motor Trend dynoed the stock unit at 400 and gets excellent mileage. My 2016 Sierra has the older version and does quite well.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/5-3l-l83-dyno-test
(https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=586644&stc=1&d=1647750737)
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I'm all for something different. I thought every household in the US already had a spare SBC in the shed, that had seen use in 3 of their previous vehicles.
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i thought the same thing Walley, about the SBC. Until I had to do work to a 76 C-10, W/ a blown up 350. Trying to find the most basic of stuff to get it fixed, (Even freeze plugs, or something as simple as VHT chevy orange eng. paint) wasn't as available, as you would think. LSs is the new SBC. Pontiac V-8s? Are starting to thin out too, so even the lowly 301 is gaining some appeal. At least with us Indian loyalists.
Now to get out in the garage, and start yanking this 305 out. Can't wait to check the fit of the 301 to the K-frame. Pics to come.
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OK I'm all caught up and waiting like a kid at Christmas for your next post :D
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What did they use-ta say, Jack? "Week-ends were made for Michelob"? I'm glad you're recuperating, after a long hard week.
Got the undercarriage unbolted last night, and was able to take some "better" measurements, and like scarebird and others have already confirmed, the mounts "are" in a different location. Surprisingly (to me) the chevy mounts are farther fwd, (almost 14" from the rear), where the poncho location is only about a foot. So I'm hoping the bolt hole location is already pre-drilled on the K-frame, where I can move the chevy mounts to. Both the Pontiac and chevy mounts are about 4" in length. Hoping, (between chores) to get the 305 yanked out today. Tomorrow, (Sunday) I have obligations to an outside car show in Manchester, Ct with a buddy, so I guess I wont be progressing much on the 84. Well see how it goes, weather wise.
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"Out with the old, and "in" with the new". (Or soon to be anyway).
The 305 is no-longer, and luckily it looks like the frame is already pre-drilled, to move the mounts back for the Pontiac. I'm not looking fwd to unbolting these mounts, cause I believe the nuts on the under side of the frame, "aren't" very accessible. Of if I'm remembering right, on the 2nd gens they're a pain to change. Wondering if the lower A-frames need-ta be removed.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/305_TA_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/32fbb7a6-9228-45de-afc3-6f0b022f93d7)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/305_TA_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/d438b80f-3bff-49e5-9961-dfded82ad4ed)
In the lower photo of the mount, you'll notice the oval hole just to the left of it. If the other two holes have that same configuration, "maybe" it'll fit. Now I need-ta fix my pressure washer, (with a busted pump) to get the eng. bay cleaned up.
(Notice the slave cylinder dangling down next to the mount). It'll be fun trying to bracket that to the BOP bell-housing.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/305_TA_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/b2cfb474-29c6-4712-bd33-1e4669c7a96b)
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The Pontiac gods are smiling.
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Ditto above. Always a milestone getting the old one out.
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Back from the Manchester car show, and had a few minutes to play in the garage.
Next step is to get the mounts laid out. Yesterday with the motor out, I was able to confirm the Pontiac 301 block mounting is approx an inch farther rearward than the chevy. I could see some extra holes around the chevy mounts, and was wondering about pre-drilled holes that might line up, a little more rearward. But I also needed to know if there was a height difference between the 2. Trying to get an accurate dimension, comparing the 2 engs was difficult because you can't get a straight shot with the tape measure, cause you have-ta go down and around the oil pan. And eyeballing centerlines from the front, doesn't work either. So I decided to use the "plumb bob method, and drop a couple lines from the mount holes in the eng. brackets. Kinda looked like this.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_mounts_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/00ab8c73-2d61-44fb-9a52-4e31b351b673)
And by checking both the same way, it appears the Poncho is approx. and inch closer together, meaning the frame mounts, need to be lowered a bit.
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Because the old mounts need removing, (and probably replacing), I got back under, to see how much of a bear it would be, to get at the nuts, inside the K-frame. And it don't look pretty. I have 3 photos to show, where any kind of access to those nuts would be. There are 2 that are feasible, (not easy, but doable), but the top fwd one doesn't look promising at all. It appears the best way, is to remove the springs and lower A frames. In the top 2 photos, if you look in the hole, and inside the rubber A frame bushing area, you can just barely see the nuts inside. But the last one shows the spring pocket, that is where the fwd bolt is, and practically impossible to get any tool in. So next, will need to remove the A-frames, to access the nuts, to remove, and redrill the mounts.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_mounts_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/6985865f-25f8-4e6b-86f5-6b8bb0bbf84c)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_mounts_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/bccde8cf-eab7-45a7-949c-1ce39c32cedd)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_mounts_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/f244a520-f935-4f18-8e7a-a9fa0a154a81)
I wish I had a crayon, so I could circle the nuts in the photos, but I always have a hard time doing that. Hopefully you can see them. They're practically centered in the photos.
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IIRC 3rd Gens only had 3 basic motors in 1984: 2.5 four, 2.8 V6 and the V8 305. I would bet the other holes are for the V6 mounts.
That said, you will be needing to drill new holes anyway.
What I would do is make a pair of 0.250 thick plates that match the 301 clamshells; send-cut-send can make these easily.
The holes would be countersunk to take 3/8" flat head bolts where the heads are welded up. This would be a stud plate. Fit up the clamshells to these plates then bolt up to the block mounts. Drop in and bolt up the engine to the trans temporarily and tack weld the plates. Remove the 2 slider bolts, pull the motor out then stitch weld the plates directly to the frame.
oh, and the existing mounts? just grind the bolt heads off and remove then grind the paint off where the mount plates go.
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That's one possibility SB, and I thank you for the idea, but I think I'll just drill new holes in the K-frame.
The saving grace, is the factory 84 rubber frame mounts, (being 4" in length) fit the factory 301 brackets perfectly. Just need to make new holes, W/O making plates, welding or cutting. And I believe what you're saying about the other holes being for the 2 other engs seem logical. I was hoping/dreaming that maybe a few of them would fit the Poncho, but nothing ever goes that easy in my life anyway. And from all the other 3rd gen/Pont. V8 installs, they too mentioned mounting issues.
But I seem to recall a 301T installation from an individual saying his mounts fit, but I don't remember the details. It was years ago. But I know where I'm at now, and hope to continue fwd. Thanks again for the comments.
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...but nothing ever goes that easy in my life
hotrodding anyway.
if it was easy girls would be doing it wifeclobberingme.gif
Here is a pic of the 2 different mounting setups - the clamshells are there for a P400
(https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=586112&d=1647132351)
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Even tho we're looking at a 2nd gen subframe, the hole patterns shown make sense. The upper holes not being used, are probably for the sbc. The mounts for the 3rd gen (Pont.) will need to go back an inch, and down the same amount. So your photo confirms what my measurements are telling me. Nice photo. Thanks.
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It was a bit of a challenge, but I was able to get the mounts off, with "mostly common" hand tools, W/O removing the A arms. The pita top fwd bolts, which has the nuts buried inside the K-frame, i thought would be impossible. But the rear upper was accessable by reaching in with an open/box end, (15MM), and the fwd one was a bit trickier. Even tho you can't see it, if you have an extended combination wrench, you can feel it, to hold. took about a half hr to get the mounts off. Then I drug out the 455 block, and removed the 301 mount brackets, and installed them to the 455. Then I placed the rubber mounts from the 84 into those brackets, and am having a minor clearance issue. Ran outta time, but will continue tomorrow...maybe.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_Mounts_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/6360b6a0-284c-435a-8ee1-d78f53013a9f)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_Mounts_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/7f65d4e4-880f-475a-ac75-0f6fe6b58844)
Sorry the block photo is sideways. Can't figure out how to flip it on PB.
(Nothing can be easy)
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Are the oil pans the same?
Are you going to blast it with a waterjet and paint?
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Is there a way to hole saw two small holes just large enough for a wrench to fit in on the back side of the frame so that you could just slip the wrench in and tighten? It shouldn't compromise the integrity of the frame any.
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Are the oil pans the same?
Are you going to blast it with a waterjet and paint?
Are the oil pans the same? That's a good question. I believe all Pontiac pans are considered equal, but I never needed a reason to compare. Now I do. (Maybe)
And (LOL), I plan on cleaning everything up, when assy begins. Right now, I'm just fitting pieces together, with the intent of detailing later. I don't wanna spend my precious time scrubbing, only to find, the combo won't fit. (I'm pretty sure it'll all go, but I'm usually wrong).
Is there a way to hole saw two small holes just large enough for a wrench to fit in on the back side of the frame so that you could just slip the wrench in and tighten? It shouldn't compromise the integrity of the frame any.
Not sure which post you're referring to, but in my last one, I was able to do exactly that. Didn't need-ta drill any holes, (tho that was a thought of mine too). Stuck an extra long combo wrench deep inside the existing hole as pictured above , (the middle picture, on reply #38) and was able to grab the nut on an angle, and ratchet the bolt off from the top. It was a bit trying, but beats dropping the A-frame and spring. Problem is, I just ordered a replacement spring compressor, that I now don't need. But it didn't cost that much, and will come in handy, in the future, (maybe)
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Now I'll be back at it, getting the other eng. bracket off the 301, and onto the 455 block, to fit the rubber mounts. They appear to be protesting a bit, when I try to position them on the angle that they sit on, in the frame. Or at least the drivers side is. Not sure about the other side. Will keep ya posted.
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Yuk. Running into some snags.
84 rubber frame mounts, to Pontiac eng. brackets fit onto each-other. But the long horizontal locating bolt holes are in a different position from each other. Making the Pontiac eng. sit a bit higher on the mounts. But before I can see what needs to be done, I need to get the passenger side 301T bracket off the engine. the drivers side came off ....simply. The passenger side 301T bracket top bolt, is buried behind the rhs exhaust manifold. Which happens to have a pipe from the turbo on it. 13 bolts total, exhaust bolts. With 150K miles on them. That have been sitting in the garage, for about 30 yrs. Which will require gobs of oxy-acetylene to try and get them out. W/O breaking them in the manifold. (Which are rare as hens teeth). So it won't be tonite. Chores to do after work tomorrow, so guess it'll be the week-end. Here's some ugly pics to see what I'm up against. Sorry, they look like crap, but they should, for what they are. (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_mounts_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/248ad50f-ef7b-4e73-b97f-29df03fc3281)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_mounts_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/b5fde025-2fba-4e79-a2c4-bfc4ebec4159)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_mounts_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/002f7495-a79e-4f40-975a-3eae585cf0ed)
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Don't take it off. Find someone who has an extra one laying around.
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Well Luke, the pipes and manifold will have-ta be removed at some point in time, during the rebuild, so it might as well be now. I'm making lots of free time for this, this up-coming week-end, so I hope to show some better progress. Maybe even a 3 day week-end.
By the way, notice the black stripes on the bottom photo above? That's my digital camera shutters sticking. (No phone for me). Something else to be aware of, when picture taking.
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*There is a conclusion to this long post, (at the bottom), if you choose to bypass the gory details*
I had to remove almost 20 exhaust system bolts, and nutted studs, just to get at that 1 mount bolt, on the RHS. Both ends of the turbo pipe, and also the cross-over pipe under the pan. Even with the oxy/acet. I still had 5 casualties. After this many yrs of them being together, they all fought me tooth and nail. But I finally was able to remove the RHS manifold, and unbolted the mount bracket, to fit it to the 455 template block. And this is how the pairs went together.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Mount_comparison_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/b23d7ae9-8a65-4186-a301-6ec708814cbd)
It wasn't a very rewarding day. It didn't surprise me the frame mounts would need relocating, but I was really optimistic that the upper and lowers would fit. And they "do" fit, onto each other, but unfortunately, there are some unforeseen problems. 2, to be exact.
In the photo above, you'll notice the extreme angle error of the mounts. Pretty flat. They need to be tilted on more of an angle for the K-frame, but the clearance between the uppers and lowers, don't allow enuff rotation on the long horizontal bolts. In that photo, the bottom mounts are twisted as far up as they will go. But there is an interference shown in the lower photo. The white arrows show the point of contact.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Mount_comparison_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/88db2d67-e4ce-49ee-937d-314ffa3f4b36)
"Maybe" I could trim off some material, to gain some rotation, but don't know if it'll be enuff, and do I really wanna hack up those turbo 301 brackets? Even if I did, there is still a second concern.
If you can picture a centerline of the holes for the horizontal mount bolts, and that dimension relative to the pan rail, you can see that the 305 eng. brackets have those holes at least in line with the pan rail, or even "above" it a little. Below is a photo of that bracket on the 305.(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Mount_comparison_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/2d23b97d-3fa4-4d9b-8319-df6557758147)
The top picture in this post, shows a comparison of the hole location on the Pontiac block. And below is another photo, but a bit confusing, due to the angle of the photo.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Mount_comparison_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/d768979f-8ee0-4711-ae36-882170492b7d)
So you can see the extreme difference in design of the 305 bracket, (below) and the 301, (above). The 305 sticks out, and up quite a bit, allowing the rubber lower mounts to set at the correct angle of the K-frame. The Pontiac bracket (above) not only is tight on the mount, but the horizontal bolt hole is lower than the Chevy. Which means the Pontiac block "should" sit higher on the frame. Unless there is a width calculation, that'll alter that concern, that I might be over looking.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Mount_comparison_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/0c3c7d56-5e74-41d3-82f7-8d339acd8d4d)
What all this comes down to, is I need to figure a way to rotate the motor mount assys to catch the correct angle. Not sure at this point what direction to go. Take a cut-off wheel to the existing 301 eng. brackets, or scratch build some new ones. Maybe there's a third option. Another Pontiac model, that'll have a mount system, that might fit. I might be able to drum up some 2nd gen lower rubber frame mounts, that'll fit those brackets better. Hummm, where would I begin to look. :shock:
Hey scarebird, in post #41 above, you have a pic of the 2nd gen frame, with the motor mounts bolted on the sub-frame. Do your eng. brackets look the same as my 301 pictured here? It would seem those should work.
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After tearing thru my scrounge, (unsuccessfully) and seeing the photos of what the original 80-81 301T frame mounts look like, (and scarebirds photo above), I've decided to just purchase the factory ones on line. They're cheap enuff, and seem to be shaped in a favorable way, unlike the chevy mounts. Live and learn, I guess. They'll be here in a week, then I'll be able to drop the block in, and drill some new holes. What to do, whilst I'm waiting....hummm....guess I should get that power washer fixed. Wonder if replacement pumps are available for older models. Maybe make some time to degrease the underhood chassis.
(On an off note, I removed the condenser from the radiator support the other night, and couldn't believe the thing is as big as the radiator. (Which is small, and plastic)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_condensor_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/115ca479-d508-4d34-8820-796370e0db9e)
If nothing more, it'll be a few more wasted pounds removed from the frt end. Every little bit hurts.
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Post 41 is not my car - a pic I gleened off the web.
The Chevy and the BOP lower mounts are indeed different.
1979 T/A with 400 interchanges with this:
BUICK CENTURY 1979-1981
BUICK ELECTRA 1980
BUICK ESTATE WAGON 1980
BUICK LESABRE 1977-1980
BUICK REGAL 1979-1982
BUICK SKYLARK 1977
CADILLAC BROUGHAM 1987-1990
CADILLAC COMMERCIAL CHASSIS 1977-1984
CADILLAC DEVILLE 1977-1984
CADILLAC FLEETWOOD 1977-1987
OLDSMOBILE DELTA 88 1979
PONTIAC BONNEVILLE 1977-1981
PONTIAC CATALINA 1976-1981
PONTIAC FIREBIRD 1975-1981
PONTIAC GRAND AM 1978-1980
PONTIAC GRAND LEMANS 1975-1981
PONTIAC GRAND PRIX 1977-1981
PONTIAC GRAND SAFARI 1977
PONTIAC LEMANS 1975-1981
PONTIAC PARISIENNE 1981
PONTIAC VENTURA 1977
No Chevys.
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Post 41 is not my car - a pic I gleened off the web.
The Chevy and the BOP lower mounts are indeed different.
No Chevys.
I'm sure this has been confirmed, by many on the net. Just wished I had been able to find out why, and informed earlier so I wouldn't have wasted my time. I still could swear I remember Paul, from many years ago, who did this, said he used the same mounts. But maybe I was remembering wrong, in that he used the factory upper and lowers from an "80-81", and not the lower chevys. Here's his video that I've reposted in the past, for many to enjoy. I hope he hears about this thread, and chimes in. I think he still owns the car, altho it was rear-ended, and damaged severely.
And back to the mount concerns. Why would the aftermarket be making modified mounts for this swap, when the factory ones from 2nd gens work? (Just need to redrill the frame).
Here's Paul's 82 firebird, with the 301T, TH350
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI3p18_owcg
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Was busy "re-arranging" the garage, trying to make space for another disassembled car. Some of the "nonessential" parts will be stored behind the garage, rather than inside. Of course the bees weren't too happy with me disturbing their nests. :-x
Think the AC parts will do OK under a tarp, as will the old radiator. I was pleased to see the functioning air cleaner lid from the 84 305, fits the same housing as the 301Ts. Then again, they're both QJs, so I can use either, depending on height.
And I was able to find a pump for my 25 yr old Coleman pressure washer, with a Briggs that still runs like a top. A new pump, is cheaper than a new machine, and the old ones seem to be built better, so I didn't mind replacing it. Problem is, it's coming from the other coast, so I hope the stagecoach gets here B4 winter.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/pressure_washer_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/p/6742a817-24b1-4402-8aa1-247a1cbe86cc)
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The 80-81 Pontiac Firebird bottom mounts came in today, but I won't be able to play till this week-end. I wuz able to put one in place, and compare them to the chevy lower mounts, and took a pic to show the differences, (that matter).
In this photo, don't get confused, because I wasn't thinking when I laid it out. the 2 mounts, that are bolted in, the left one, is the new one, and the right one, is the chevy mount. Unlike the ones on top of the block, the left one is the chevy mount, and the right one is the Pontiac lower mount. (sorry for that.)
Anyway, on the mounts that are bolted in place, you can see the angle difference. The chevy mount on the right is too tight, and won't allow it to rotate to the correct angle, because of that.
On the comparison photo of the 2 sitting on top of the block, I marked the differences in shape with the yellow ball marker. You can see the chevy mount on the left, sticks up higher than the Pontiac one on the right, which is tapered, and clears the eng. bracket on the motor.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_mounts_001(1).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/f9ab8f7e-24d5-4047-a0c8-ac2c85ea0986)
Maybe, it's possible to take a cut-off wheel, and remove material from the eng. bracket, or smash the lower chevy bracket flatter, but I chose the new mount cause they were so cheap. And why were they so cheap? The box they came in said,..."Made in"...well you can only guess. NOT in the US. Don't we make anything anymore?
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Today was a good day. Relatively productive. At a good stopping point.
With the new 2nd gen mounts bolted to the eng. brackets, I lowered them into the chassis, and mated it to the TH700 bell. (which I never unbolted from the crossmember, or torque tube.). This gave me my fore and aft eng. mount positioning. Once the eng. and mounts were sitting on the K-frame, I twisted the eng. and aligned the bolt holes of the new mounts, to be symmetrical with the old mount holes, in the K-frame. This leveled the eng., and I then scribed some marks where the new holes needed to be drilled. 2 on the top, and one on the bottom. (P.S. Don't make the mistake I made, and had the new mounts installed to the eng. brackets "up-side-down"! :shock: Not sure if it would've made a difference, because of new holes being drilled, but I had-ta re-install, and remark)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/drilled_mounts_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/eaa7e880-6d2b-4c7d-89cc-3cee288a270a)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/drilled_mounts_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/58c370ec-0260-44d4-83a8-92afe80df303)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/drilled_mounts_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/41593be9-715d-404d-af51-2317dbe6f9f5)
Once the holes were marked, I removed the block, and drilled the news holes. Started with a 3/16ths pilot, and after 4 bit increases, ended with a 7/16ths bit. And the drilling wasn't very difficult. In the photos below, you can see the new holes, marked with a yellow ball marker. (The frame is starting to look like a "swiss cheese Catalina.)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/drilled_mounts_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/fa8ebfd0-ff0c-4f2a-a3ae-92d7be02e0ce)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/drilled_mounts_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/e17c2cce-cde1-446b-b7d3-c6bcd5d6c8ad)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/drilled_mounts_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/64abd723-680f-4536-8bc7-1da1c64771b1)
I ended by lowering the whole assy back onto the mounts, with some bolts to hold it "temporarily" in place.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/drilled_mounts_007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/ce440ad2-0fb2-4790-a6f5-6eaca5ca780f)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/drilled_mounts_008.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/ae5a27a3-3904-4672-9f1b-86165ddd2ee6)
Notice the top of the TH700 chevy bell-housing sticking up behind the block. My next step is to get it back up in the air, and get that tranny out, and fit the Pont. bellhousing, and T5, and figure out the best way to mount the slave cylinder. Stay tuned. :)
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Looks good.
I would throw the heads on with a couple bolts and then see what the exhaust manifolds do. A thought on the slave cylinder would be to use a hydraulic throw-out bearing.
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Thanks SB.
Because the block is a 455, and taller than the 301, and the turbo exhaust is pretty simple, (and similar to the SBC cross-over pipe), i'm not too worried about that. I'll have-ta tune it if necessary when the time comes to install it.
As for the hyd. TOB, I've seen that option, and will leave it as a last resort. If the slave cyl. leaks, I won't have-ta pull out the tranny. I've mentioned B4, I'm not a fan of hyd. clutch systems, but with the problematic design of the 3rd gen, and mech. Z-bars, I don't have much of a choice.
I see the aftermarket makes a huge and thick bracket, for the slave cyl., and is pretty expensive. Once I get the TH700 out, and the T5 and bellhousing in, I'll have a better idea of what I'm up against. Another concern is the torque tube mount, to the back of the tranny, or at least in that area. Hopefully I'll get some time to do that tomorrow. More pics to come.
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Today was a bit more challenging than yesterday. The 700 came out as expected, but installing the T5 wasn't any fun.
I remember years ago, the muncie 4 speed was the weakest of the "big 3", outta Detroit. But being an aluminum case, had it's advantages when it came to removal. I would always recruit help, when dropping an automatic, on my back. But Muncies were a piece of cake. Use-ta do clutch changes, on my back, by myself in less than an hr in my 65 GTO. (That was in my teens and 20s).
So today, I figured..."a T5 is weaker than a Muncie, therefore it must be lighter. Aluminum case and all". Wrong, they're either heavier, or I've gotten older, and weaker. (Don't answer that). So I ended up installing the T5 with the floor jack. After battling it, underneath, a few times, and giving in.
TH700R4 removal wasn't bad, seeing most of it was disconnected, and the tranny jack held it OK.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_install_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/4788a0cf-8d1a-4bb6-a071-258c41a65082)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_install_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/53c00a6c-f188-458b-a501-a1113016846e)
And the T5 finally in place, "sans flywheel and clutch", or even crankshaft. :D
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TH700_removal_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/b02462e3-e934-4943-96ad-6f2c4bed7c63)
In this lower picture, you'll notice the 3rd gen F body tailhousing details. Because the tranny gets mounted to a weird chevy bell, it's tilted a few degrees, for who knows why. But when it's tilted, the tranny mount is level with the cross-member. But because I have it mounted on a BOP bell, the tranny is level, but the tailhousing is now off.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TH700_removal_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/95329858-e699-427a-83a0-7a60bbeeda1d)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TH700_removal_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/75627f96-71bf-4c88-a5fb-154fd9720902)
I'm wondering if I can swap it with a Ford T5 tailhousing (That I believe is straight. Or even maybe an S-10 tail). Or, (because this is one of the worst T5...being a non WC V-6 tranny) should I even invest any money into it, or just replace it with at least a WC T5. I got this for practically nothing, and if nothing more, just planned on "experimenting" with the T5 application.
Another issue, is the torque arm mount. In the lower pic, you can see the end of the arm, (up high), and the mounting bolt/pad location, that is M/T in that photo.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TH700_removal_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/c1eb65d0-d21e-4f2f-a018-1dfb0906938b)
If I can find a different tailhousing, W/O the tilt, then the only dilemma will be bolting up the torque arm. I think the aftermarket has brackets to eliminate the tranny mount.
And lastly, is the hyd. clutch. The slave cyl./clutch fork, looks pretty crowded. specially with the "bump" for the starter. When I get some renewed free time, I'll have-ta give that more investigating. Scarebird mentioned the hyd. TOB, which is starting to look like it might be the "only" option.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TH700_removal_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/bdb52a8d-a3dc-4e98-83fd-e32665b75906)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TH700_removal_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/2f239096-33ae-4ba9-95e0-e4eb6f83dacb)
In the above photos, the slave cyl. is just dangling. Nothing to bolt to yet.
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I wish I was closer to your place or had more time I would love to help, but you're doing great Joe. Keep on experimenting, thats half the fun.
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Thanks for that Jack, but you have your own birds to be pruning. Have a productive week.
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A thought would be you may be able to simply use a Spohn aftermarket arm or modded stock arm to use a tube and rubber guide. You can make a plate to mount a 1" sway bar mount - a 1" tube would slide in and be welded to an OEM torque arm. Or sort out a way to bend the OEM mount out to match the arm
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-75d0b/images/stencil/2000x2000/products/678/842/UMI_1982_-_2002_GM_F-Body_Transmission_Mounted_Non-Adjustable_Torque_Arm__84899.1286990681.jpg?c=2)
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That's a good suggestion. I like the roll bar mount and tub idea!
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I've seen that aftermarket ladder bar, and they just look like a bit of an overkill for my application, not to mention the extra cash, I'd rather not spend. But I know where you're going in that they have a mounting pocket, that would get it off the transmission. I thought something like this might be more suitable.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/torque_arm_kit.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/p/b210cde5-b1f3-4d49-a712-1b49c5701a93)
It would allow me to use my stock torque arm, and not have-ta mess with the rear mounting. Course the price on this isn't anything to write home about, but I realize sometimes you just gutta bite the bullet. Wondering if I could just weld a bracket to the stock crossmember....but I don't know. Maybe just bite the bullet, and buy this.
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I should be researching the slave cylinder mounting, but because we finally got rain, (and it was Mon. yesterday) I spent my free time inside, on the 'puter, looking for T5 options. What I've finally come up with, (at least for now) is to use a GM WC T5, with a Ford T5 tailhousing. the shifter is correct in location, (un-like an S-10, or Astro-van tailhousing), and doesn't have all the obstructions for the torque arm mounting. Now, to find a GM WC T5, that needs rebuilding for a decent price, or buy individual pieces, or price out ones already built. There's a tranny shop in this state that does T5s, and has a good reputation, so I might make the drive, to get a feel for them. Otherwise, the hunt begins. Now, back to the garage, and get the mess cleaned up.
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What about a early LT1 T56 trans? They use a hydraulic piston to push the release arm on the clutch. I'll bet you could remove that piston and adapt a z bar for a mechanical clutch. Plus they have the torque arm mounts.
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As for as the torque arm is concerned, why not cut it a foot back from the trans end and weld a cap plate to it. take the other end and install it in the trans then tack weld it to the plate - it would adapt for the twist of the trans. This area is not under much stress.
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What about a early LT1 T56 trans? They use a hydraulic piston to push the release arm on the clutch. I'll bet you could remove that piston and adapt a z bar for a mechanical clutch. Plus they have the torque arm mounts.
What years used this set-up RG? Was it available in a 3rd gen, or a 4th? Interesting thought. As for the mech. Z bar, isn't the best option. The chassis is practically designed to "not" have a Z-bar. There are a few out there, but the owners treat them like gold, and there isn't enuff interest for the aftermarket to reproduce them, and some past owners say they were problematic. I still wish I could find one to try out, but I've already installed the factory hyd. system, that also needs tweaking to work.
As for as the torque arm is concerned, why not cut it a foot back from the trans end and weld a cap plate to it. take the other end and install it in the trans then tack weld it to the plate - it would adapt for the twist of the trans. This area is not under much stress.
Now there's a thought SB. Use the original tailhousing, and fabb the end of the torq. arm to fit the angle, rather than trying to change tail housings to fit. Another good thought. Thanks.
I was wondering if the bushing for the yoke was the same from ford to chevy. As you might see from the pics above, the rear tranny mount is "also" crooked, like the torque arm mount.
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The early LT1 T56 came in the 93-97 4th gen cars. However, I can't remember why but to stay away from the 93 version. Something about gearing and/or weaker parts. 94-97 are the ones to look for. You could keep the hydraulics if you already have it set up. I believe most come with a 2.66 first gear and a .85 and .5 5th and 6th gear. Would be really fun for a car like yours. I believe this is almost a direct bolt in for 3rd gen cars.
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Cool thought, but remember, I have a BOP bell, and were the 4th gen bells/tranny straight up, or crooked like the 3rd gens?
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Social, and other obligations will prevent me from any garage time this week-end, ( :sad:), so the saga will continue next week.
Still researching 3 issues that need "rectum-fying".
1- Clutch slave cylinder mounting
2- torque arm mounting
3- transmission options
To be continued...
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TAjoe,
Families, jobs and other obligations almost always come first before this hobby. I was pretty much out of the car hobby for many decades because of this. It always amazes how working people find time to build cars. Having said that I am impressed with your progress!
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I may have missed it but what rear axle is in this now?
It plays a huge part in determining transmission. My 83 Berly had a 2.73 IIRC, not good for manual swaps.
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TAjoe,
Families, jobs and other obligations almost always come first before this hobby. I was pretty much out of the car hobby for many decades because of this. It always amazes how working people find time to build cars. Having said that I am impressed with your progress!
Thanks 5T. It takes a lot of patience, doesn't it? I just hope I live long enuff, to complete one of my projects.
I may have missed it but what rear axle is in this now?
It plays a huge part in determining transmission. My 83 Berly had a 2.73 IIRC, not good for manual swaps.
Another excellent question SB, and one I'm fully aware of. Not even sure what the ratio in this 84 is, cause it's not a posi, and I haven't pulled the cover, or investigated the tag, if it even has one. I believe I've heard the std gear for this 84s combo is something like a 3.23. But B4 I ever get into the cosmetics of this resto mod, I plan on installing at least a 3.42, but preferably a 3.73 posi, and maybe even 4 wheel disc, depending what I can find out there.
I drive a 93 2500 chevy stakebed, for my residential work truck, and it has a 4180LE, with a 3.73 rear, and it flys on the highway. (At least compared to my 83 C-30 dually, with an SM465, no OD, and a 4.10 rear).
So in the 80-81 301T T/As, all they had was a 3.08 rear, which kills the bottom end of this little mill. And because I won't be spending lots of time with this car on the hi-way, I would prefer to have the acceleration through the gears, with the 3.73s. And with the OD, it'll still keep up with traffic on the free-way.
(Then again, I just came back from the Mass pike, in the Boston area, and it appears the cruise speed now-a-days, is 85+) I'm satisfied with around 75.
So yeah, I will be up-grading what-evers in the back of this car, but 1st I need-ta complete the frt, and middle. And once again, thanks for the advice SB.
P.S. Isn't it kinda strange, how all 3 pages of this catagory, (projects and restos), has mostly everyone else's thread labeled "NEW", even if they're years old, but mine which is only a couple months isn't. Wunder what qualifies as new?
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Well, my new pressure washer pump has just arrived, so soon I'll be degreasing this thing. At least the eng. compartment for now.
Have a question for the masters. Scarebird (and possibly others), have brought up an alternate transmission to the T-5. I was hoping the T-5 would be an easier install, and would tolerate the weakness, for that reason. But it doesn't appear it's that much of a bolt in, with "minor" mods, so if I have-ta put work into the transformation, maybe a T-56 could also work, and maybe be more available, than a WC T5. Does anyone know, or can confirm, that the bolt pattern on the frt case, and input shaft length is the same as the T5?
Because the F-body/GM T5 has a twisted tailhousing, and an Astro van, or S-10 truck T5s have the shifter fwd on the tailhousing, (so it doesn't work on an F body) And the Ford T5 tail, (is the yoke bushing the same as the GM?) may not be transferable, then how about a T-56? Will one bolt to a BOP bell, and use the same T5 driveshaft?
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The T56 has a typical SBC bolt pattern and has a unique bell housing, but the early models were meant to go behind SBC so that should be the same spacing as a T5. There are either adapters that will bolt to the case, and will allow for them to bolt to a regular 4 bolt bellhousing like you probably already have, or you could get an adapter to convert the BOP to SBC. Or I believe there is a Quicktime BOP T56 bellhousing. Also they are all 26 spline input shafts, with the 27 spline output shaft. So the T5 yoke should fit fine.
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Looks like someone now makes a T56 to BOP bellhousing
https://threepedals.com/products/conversion-package/bellhousing-bop-to-ls-t56/small-block-big-block-gm-buick-olds-pontiac-to-tremec-magnum-t56-bellhousing/
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A T56 sounds great, but what about fitting in the tunnel?
A TKX would easily fit but requires fabbing up the torque arm mount*. Also $2,800 :lol:
I have one of these for my 71 - nice unit.
(https://images.holley.com/tkx_005.jpg)
* IIRC mounts are made for the torque arm to bolt to the trans crossmember.
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Looks like someone now makes a T56 to BOP bellhousing
Yikes! :shock: $500 for that bellhousing. I'm trying to use up my inventory when possible, (just to thin out the garage herd), and if I can use the original, I will. The T-56 is a new one on me, and the few photos I've seen of them, they kinda look like the bellhousing is one piece with the tranny. (Like an automatic). But I think I've seen others that weren't. You mentioned early and newer ones, so if necessary, I'll dig deeper. Appreciate the info Ryeguy.
A T56 sounds great, but what about fitting in the tunnel?
A TKX would easily fit but requires fabbing up the torque arm mount*. Also $2,800 :lol:
I have one of these for my 71 - nice unit.
(https://images.holley.com/tkx_005.jpg)
* IIRC mounts are made for the torque arm to bolt to the trans crossmember.
And yet, another option SB. Nice lookin unit.
I see the note under the photo stating "IIRC mounts are made for the torque arm to bolt to tranny crossmember".
I wuz hoping this would be an easy modification, but it appears it isn't...either.
If you'll notice in my application, the photo below shows how far back the torque mount clamp is, relative to the lower tranny mount.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TH700_removal_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/95329858-e699-427a-83a0-7a60bbeeda1d)
The 2 large M/T bosses (RHS of photo) hold the lower bolts to the clamp (not bolted on in this photo) for the torque tube, and they're a good 8" or more back from the crossmember, and the torque arm doesn't go up that far. There would need-ta be a long extension from the crossmember, to the torque arm, to capture it.
This lower pic isn't as easy to read, but you can see the "end" of the torque arm, between the 2 L/H clamp bolts tucked up high in the tunnel. It's confusing with the dark shadow running along the side of it.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TH700_removal_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/c1eb65d0-d21e-4f2f-a018-1dfb0906938b)
Anyway, I knew this was a dilemma to overcome, and in time, it'll be taken care of.
My next step is to talk to a local professional tranny rebuilder who specializes in T5s, and get (her) opinion. Her father started the business many years ago, and has passed, She has taken over, and is pretty reputable. I'm gunna see if she knows of a sturdy enuff (for a 301T) T5, that will adapt to my application, which I'm sure will mean swapping cases from other makes.
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Looking for more advice/opinions.
About the Tremec TKO-500. I hear Tremec took over the T5s, and they seem to be a step up, from the OEM T5s. Much of the info I find, appears they're mostly for the Ford group. Still not sure about the adaptability.
I also see some ads for an aftermarket Co., called "Rockland Standard Gear", altho the magazines are pretty old, and the site seems to be dysfunctional. But their prices were reasonable, and so are most "non" WC T5s, which are suppose-ta be only good for 4 silly-winders or 6s. Not V8s. Even on E-bay, seems like anything stick shift related is gobbled up, gone, or non existent.
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As others have said, I like the idea of putting a turbo 301 in your 1984 TA. This is what Pontiac would have done if GM didn't pull the plug on the 301. This is why early 3rd Gen TA's had the offset hood bulge. Obviously, when Pontiac built the 301 T, they were at a disadvantage not having modern electronic controls for engine timing, fuel flow and knock detection. Since my car came with a NA 301, I tried to join 301 Garage. I always got a message saying "registration is disabled". Regardless, they have a lot of good 301 information. Joe from TTA Performance is the guru on these turbo motors. I think he has a streetcar running 12.80's on ethanol without going into the engine.
Hang in there, I would love to see this project finished!
You brought this up a while back, and I was confused why this would happen. (At the "Garage")
Now, it seems I'm out too, for what-ever reason. When I click on the access page, the screen comes up white, and blank, with a computer gibberish statement, saying I'm not authorized to view this page. There are parts of the site that are still accessible, but not the main forum. Am I banned, (?) been there about 10 yrs), or is the site dying a slow death? Anyone else tried this?
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As others have said, I like the idea of putting a turbo 301 in your 1984 TA. This is what Pontiac would have done if GM didn't pull the plug on the 301. This is why early 3rd Gen TA's had the offset hood bulge. Obviously, when Pontiac built the 301 T, they were at a disadvantage not having modern electronic controls for engine timing, fuel flow and knock detection. Since my car came with a NA 301, I tried to join 301 Garage. I always got a message saying "registration is disabled". Regardless, they have a lot of good 301 information. Joe from TTA Performance is the guru on these turbo motors. I think he has a streetcar running 12.80's on ethanol without going into the engine.
Hang in there, I would love to see this project finished!
You brought this up a while back, and I was confused why this would happen. (At the "Garage")
Now, it seems I'm out too, for what-ever reason. When I click on the access page, the screen comes up white, and blank, with a computer gibberish statement, saying I'm not authorized to view this page. There are parts of the site that are still accessible, but not the main forum. Am I banned, (?) been there about 10 yrs), or is the site dying a slow death? Anyone else tried this?
It's probably dying a slow death. I remember when I was over there, activity was pretty low. Only a handful of guys posted regularly.
Sucks as there is a ton of 301 info on that site that isn't found elsewhere.
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The 301 garage (I think) wasn't the 1st 301 site, because in this video below, it mentions "the now defunct" turbo shrine(?) website. And this video was many years ago.
Too bad Joe on the garage site, doesn't sell some transcripts from that site. I would pay to have that info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iovohEChv10
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The 301 is all but gone completely. Most don't even know what that engine was/is. So many were pulled and scrapped. I mean, I yanked the one out of my TA (I still have it and it's partially rebuilt) and replaced it with an LS. I have 3 301s now, I will get one in a car again soon.
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We all know they're not power houses, but they have their benefits. Fuel mileage "potential", (not as easy with the turbo from what I understand), smaller, and lighter, and they do run smoother than the older V6s. (Maybe even the newer(?) Problem now-a-days is parts availability. But as of right now, some stuff can still be had. And with the turbo, it definitely puts enuff power where I'll use it.
I compare this engine, to my 6.2(diesel, form the early 80s, to the 90s.). It was all GM had at the time, and it did an OK job, for mileage reasons, their main objective. I can get over 20 MPGs, with my C-30 dually, pulling a loaded double axle trailer. But, (like the 301) they were poo-pooed at the time, and today the Duramax is just a killer motor. (If you like playing with computers, wiring, and a barrage of sensors). I prefer the simplicity of the 83 6.2 in my dually, and work around it's lack of power. Still looking for an Advanced Adapter Split shifter, that I can put behind the SM465 granny low tranny, to give a better gear selection, with the 3 to 4th gear spread, and lack of OD. But I hear they're not in business any more, and am hoping some-one will pick up the rights.
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Here we are, (Labor day) and I'm still researching, and pondering over tranny options. It's almost overwhelming, because of the many differences of throwing an old BOP bellhousing, into the 3rd gen. And with so many T5s that have been produced over the years, through the factories, and aftermarket, just complicates it even more. I'm sure there's a configuration that'll work in my car, I just haven't got there yet.
The T-56 I looked into, and has as many differences as the T5, but surely is a better tranny.
The aftermarket T5s, like the Tremec TKO, and TKX look like better options, but most are designed for fords, and are costly.
I was hoping to be able to adapt GM WC T5 case, with something like a mustang T5 tailhousing, but haven't found out about the compatibility. Ebay has pages of different T5s available, but none (yet) that I'm confident with. The aftermarket TKX looks pretty good, depending.
As of right now, still been distracted with yard, and garage clean-up chores, (external), but am still taking time for this swap.
Below is the tranny adapter, to bolt a Ford T5, to a Muncie bell housing. Any thoughts?
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/tranny_adapter.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/p/7a11deaa-e1d9-4815-b464-366eb255494a)
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Tick sells a LS1 style T56 to Muncie adapter plate. You remove the LS bellhousing and bolt on this adapter. Then it will bolt directly to the Muncie bolt pattern bell that you have for BOP. It says that it will only work with the LS style trans without having to replace the input shaft.
https://www.tickperformance.com/t56-mounting-adapter-plate-swap-applications/
There's really only two main T56's that you would be looking at the LT1 style or LS style. LT1 was a trans from 93-97 that uses an external slave cylinder, and the LS is from 98-02 that uses an internal slave cylinder. They came in 4th gen Fbodies. Looks like a Viper would work too, but they are wayy expensive. And I wouldn't even consider the CTS-V, Corvette, 5th Gen Camaro, or others. Hopefully that narrows down your search.
I'm really curious to see how this thread turns out. Honestly makes me want to do the same thing. :lol: It's a really cool project.
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Another great find RG. Something else to throw into the option pile. It's expanding daily.
I've been conversing with the tranny expert Paul Cangialosi, who has a YT channel called "gearbox videos", and has his business now in Fla, and I'm having a brain fart remembering its name. But this is his website, and he's been around for a while, and still active. I'm waiting for another response to an E-mail I sent, and he's already been generous enuff to reply a few times, in the past 24 hrs. I have faith we'll be able to put something together.
https://www.5speeds.com/
The adapter to bolt the T-56 to the BOP bell is a good start, but other mods still will be required, such as driveshaft yoke and length, lack of speedo connection, probably rear mount, and shifter adjustment, just to name a few. Not to say it's not possible, but I'm being lazy, and looking for more of a bolt-in, if I can achieve it. i think the aftermarket TKO, or TKX is closer, but still waiting for Paul's opinion. Thanks again RG.
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What are the ratios of the T5?
If your 83 was like my 83 Berly the rear is a 2.73 open - it will need to be changed.
I would rebuild the T5 and run this with 3.42 gears.
(https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/sum-730958_ml.jpg)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-730958/make/chevrolet/model/camaro/year/1983
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SB, if you remember, we already discussed the rear gear in reply's #73, and 74. But I like your style. 3, 1/2 rear gears, (3.42s, or 3.55s) have always been behind my Pontiacs. They're a great street/strip gear, or at least they use-ta be, B4 ODs have spoiled us.
I plan on running a 3.73 like mentioned in post #74, because the OD will allow hi-way driving, but the low gear will give a good snap off the line for the little underpowered 301. Once again, I'm not even sure what gear is in there now, but I know it's not lower than 3-1/2, and because it's an open, it'll definitely need a modification, and up-grade. With a 3.73 rear, I'm not too concerned about the 1st gear tranny ratio. What gear are you running in yours?
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Depends; the TA has a TKO600 w/ 2.9ish 1ist and 0.82 OD with 3.08 gears (mistake on the OD).
LeMans has 3.27 1st w/0.72 OD and 2.93's
Now you mention it the LeMans setup would work nice in your 83.
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And just to throw something more "confusing" into the mix, I've just learned about another company up-state NY, called "AutoGear", who potentially has a 5 speed to replace the Muncie 4 spd. They call it an M-33, but I can't find squat about this tranny on-line. It was mentioned very briefly in the back of Paul's manual transmission book. I've also sent them an E-mail, to see if they'll respond. This is Pauls book, that's been around a while.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/manual_tranny_book.webp?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/p/61ed664c-fda1-4ad1-8c1a-ba22c9c1642c)
Also learned Richmond carries a 5 speed, that looks very familiar, like a Tremec TKO, or am I mistaken?
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Richmond_5_spd.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/p/5258296e-c7e9-4fe6-bcef-e3f40cce2f96)
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IIRC the Richmond 5 speed is the old Doug Nash unit - essentially a 5 speed with low gears to use the type of diff gearing you have.
Paul also had (has?) the M22Z, a Rockcrusher with 2.98 1st gear - would easily fit your 3rd gen and has the Rockcrusher whine. I had one in my 71 - ran well.
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I think that's the guy who like Scarebird said has the M22Z gearset for 4 speed transmissions. I remember seeing a tent advertising it at Carlisle. I don't remember the first two gears, but 3rd was a 1:1 and 4th was like a .85 OD. I wonder if it was the same guy?
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Cars gonna be a great ride when done.
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Cars gonna be a great ride when done.
Thanks Rich. I hope to keep it going, for "everyone's" pleasure.
IIRC the Richmond 5 speed is the old Doug Nash unit - essentially a 5 speed with low gears to use the type of diff gearing you have.
Paul also had (has?) the M22Z, a Rockcrusher with 2.98 1st gear - would easily fit your 3rd gen and has the Rockcrusher whine. I had one in my 71 - ran well.
"IIRC", LOL, had-ta look that one up in my Funkin Wagnalls, cause I honestly didn't know it. :-?I think that's the guy who like Scarebird said has the M22Z gearset for 4 speed transmissions. I remember seeing a tent advertising it at Carlisle. I don't remember the first two gears, but 3rd was a 1:1 and 4th was like a .85 OD. I wonder if it was the same guy?
And yet, "another" tranny to look into. You guy's are just a plethora of info. A 3 speed muncie, with an OD? I can't imagine the spread between gears. As Artie Johnson would say, "very interesting".
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/laugh-in_johnson.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/p/7764f49d-cf92-44b5-9034-15c4f4ee5722)
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And yet, "another" tranny to look into. You guy's are just a plethora of info. A 3 speed muncie, with an OD? I can't imagine the spread between gears. As Artie Johnson would say, "very interesting".
I don't have a project car at the moment, so I don't mind spending other people's money haha. Lots of options out there. I guess the real question would come down to budget. I think if you are looking for the best bang for your buck, it would be either the TKO 500/600 or the new TKX. It would bolt in with your existing bellhousing, has good first gear and OD 5th, mechanical speedo and is roughly the size of the stock trans. I've been down that road and as much as it hurts, sometimes it's just worth spending the money upfront on the right parts to make things down the road be so much easier.
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I hear what you're sayin RG. There will be a point where I might have-ta bite that preverbal bullet, and all these alternate aftermarket trannys have their good and not so good points. And because Paul hasn't responded to my last E-mail, I'm assuming he's not interested in my money anymore.
But he did make a comment, that has gotten me thinkin. The 3rd gen T5s, (as we all know), have the tranny, (tailhousing mounts), tilted 17°, and because my BOP bell is straight, it causes that mount problem. Pauls says there's enuff meat back there to mill it flat, rather than tilted, but in the same breath, he has said what everyone else is saying. "Buy an aftermarket, and be done with it". LOL
And I probably should, but I just can't see me spending 3K on a tranny that's good for 500+ ft/lbs of torque, behind the 301T. Having a hard time justifying it. If my name was "Trump", I might think differently, but because retirement isn't to far off in my future, i will need money to eat, along with banging gears.
So to sum it up, if I can find a WC GM T5, in "any" condition", I won't mind fixing it up. And the side benefit of that, is I can bolt my existing torque arm to it. But none of that has materialized...yet, so we'll see what transpires.
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So today I get a notification on the other brand X site, and find a member with not 1, but "3" mechanical Zbars, for a 3rd gen. Offers to take some dimensions for anyone interested, but states, "none are for sale". Ticks me off, cause those Z-bars are out there, but no-one will part with them.:(
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/3_Z_bars.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/c10bb464-0f93-49e6-b3db-c58d955dd5f4)
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So today I get a notification on the other brand X site, and find a member with not 1, but "3" mechanical Zbars, for a 3rd gen. Offers to take some dimensions for anyone interested, but states, "none are for sale". Ticks me off, cause those Z-bars are out there, but no-one will part with them.:(
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/3_Z_bars.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/b85c00e4-ea6e-4e7f-b850-2c77918b501c/p/c10bb464-0f93-49e6-b3db-c58d955dd5f4)
Sorry, I’ve been following bits and pieces of your build but admittedly haven’t gotten caught up recently. Do you have a zbar you’re planning on modifying for use cause if not im pretty sure I have an extra 2nd gen one you could have if needed.
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Brian, thanks for the offer, and I too have an extra second gen Z-bar, but I really don't wanna butcher it. The 3rd gen bar is pretty complicated, and specific with multiple weird angles on all 3 components of it. If I had one in my hand to copy, I might give it a whirl, but other than that, I guess I'm stuck with the hyd. set-up I purchased "used", and will need-ta continue modifying and repairing to make it work. Still trying to work out the tranny details. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday. :)
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This tranny escapade is really starting to accumulate. There has-ta be a bottom here somewhere.
Waiting for a response from a Co. in SC, called "The gear Box," (.org), and they have T-56s, and T5s, and parts. I sent them an Email this week-end, (concerning my application), and was hoping for a response today, but nothing yet.
And I started having another brain fart, and thinking, "I have a Muncie, and an ST-10 on my shelves", and was contemplating sticking one in, just to get up and running. Then I saw that "Gear Vendors" makes an OD to put behind a Muncie, or an ST-10! How cool would that be? Have the stronger tranny, with an OD on the back, and kill 2 stones, with one bird! Then I looked up the price. 3K!!!! I can buy an entire brand new race tranny for that. How do they justify that price? :mad:
I wasn't having much luck looking for WC T5s on Ebay, or Craigslist, (which everyone is saying is dying), but just got turned on to Face Puke market place. The wife has that on hers, so I guess I'll try digging into that swamp, and see what floats. (Man.....)
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Brian, thanks for the offer, and I too have an extra second gen Z-bar, but I really don't wanna butcher it. The 3rd gen bar is pretty complicated, and specific with multiple weird angles on all 3 components of it. If I had one in my hand to copy, I might give it a whirl, but other than that, I guess I'm stuck with the hyd. set-up I purchased "used", and will need-ta continue modifying and repairing to make it work. Still trying to work out the tranny details. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday. :)
Alrighty good luck! And I will catch up soon lol
Also, depending on your needs, check out this site/guy and maybe he can help. He has many YouTube videos on various transmissions for various purposes and is very knowledgeable. He (Paul is his name) answered a call from me and was very helpful. He had a few parts I needed for my ST-10 that weren’t listed online. His website isn’t overly user friendly but he also responded to emails from me as well.
https://www.5speeds.com/
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I guess I've been "over-posting" Brian, so I guess you missed it in post #88 above.
That's Ok, I appreciate the input, and you know what they say..."Great minds think alike". LOL
I went into my garage stash, and pulled out the St-10, and Muncie, and altho both will work on the bell-housing, and clutch, both trannys are shorter than the TH700/T5, and would require a longer driveshaft, and crossmember relocate. Not as easy a bolt in that I was hoping for. Still out looking for a GM WC 3rd gen, V8 T5, used maybe.. (Man, there's a lot of demands there). B4 I have-ta go to the aftermarket, for a TKX.
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Sorry tajoe, I should’ve perused the thread a bit more before suggesting that. As I said, your build really interests me and I started following along I just haven’t had the chance to catch up recently.
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If you have a ST10 I would run that with 3.23 gearset. I do not think a 3" stroke motor will have any issues revving.
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Given your predicament, my suggestion would be to just keep an eye out for a used TKO trans. I think they go for around 1500-2k. Not sure what the cost of the T5 is, but if you consider it would cost half of that, it's not "that" much more to go with a tried and true trans that will be exactly what you want. I'd also bet that you could sell the T10 and Muncie trans and almost fund your TKO. :cool:
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My TKO fit in easily in a 2nd gen. But a third gen is smaller.
I googled it and found this article for a Camaro:
https://www.bowlertransmissions.com/3rd-gen-camaro-tko-5-speed-swap/ (https://www.bowlertransmissions.com/3rd-gen-camaro-tko-5-speed-swap/)
Of course your engine is a 301.
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Sorry tajoe, I should’ve perused the thread a bit more before suggesting that. As I said, your build really interests me and I started following along I just haven’t had the chance to catch up recently.
No prob. Brian. It's easy to get lost in some of these threads. I do the same thing.
If you have a ST10 I would run that with 3.23 gearset. I do not think a 3" stroke motor will have any issues revving.
From what I've heard RG, that's the gear already in there. Guess it's std for a TH700, T/A w/AC. (no posi tho...yet)
As for the short stroke comment, I'm sorry to say, the 301 is "definitely" not a revver. One of the worst head port, and intakes ever designed. No bottom end, and no top end. The only saving grace, is the turbo "kinda" helps. (LOL) But once again, I'm not looking for a rocket ship, just something fun to drive around, (F-body, stick-shift, V8, turbo), and something just a little bit different.
And the Muncie, ST-10 idea, I'm dropping. I pulled both of them out yesterday, and they're a couple inches shorter than the T5. Which means crossmember relocate, and custom drive-shaft. Trying to avoid that if possible.
With an 80s F-body T5, I can easily, (cheaply) machine the tail-housing to fit the crossmember, and mount the torque arm.
My TKO fit in easily in a 2nd gen. But a third gen is smaller.
I googled it and found this article for a Camaro:
https://www.bowlertransmissions.com/3rd-gen-camaro-tko-5-speed-swap/ (https://www.bowlertransmissions.com/3rd-gen-camaro-tko-5-speed-swap/)
Of course your engine is a 301.
Thanks for the article Bob. It arms me with some useful info that I can use. I was looking seriously into one of them, but think if I have-ta go new aftermarket, I would rather the TKX. Seems the sizing is closer, and I don't think I need-ta cut the driveshaft. Maybe with the TKO, it's longer(?).
Still hunting the used car channels for a 88-93 WC V8 T5. reasonably. In pieces I'ld pay under a grand, complete and working maybe $1500...depending. I'll be looking a bit longer, B4 I bite the bullet on a new TKX.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/dance_guy_-_Page_1.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/tajoe/a/2128a181-2874-4762-97b1-bc14b6f090e4/p/27c89bbf-c4cb-485b-afec-c44f05dc1662)
OMG!!!!! I can't believe it!! I just found a WC, V8, T5, for a 3rd gen F-body, for way under a grand!! and it (supposedly) still works!
I know, it's not in my hand yet, but it seems very plausible by this week-end. Which means, alls I need-ta do, is machine the tail-housing mount straight, and the torque arm mounts are easy, and useable. Normal fine spline clutch disc, and same driveshaft. After that, I can start focussing on the hyd. clutch system. Yes. :-D
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Keeping my fingers crossed for you. :cool:
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Way under a grand is good news, hopefully you are not traveling 3 states to get it.
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Great find, way cheaper than TKO/TKX!
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It's less than a 3 hr drive, and is in NH, where my daughter lives. So once again, I'll be able to kill 2 stones with 1 bird. Get the tranny, and see my daughter, and hubby. Waiting on confirmation of times, from the seller, for the week-end.
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I "just" read a thread by Tom, (TAT) on the power cruise, and remember him mentioning an aftermarket serpentine belt system, and was wondering if anyone knows if there's one available for the Pontiac, specifically to fit my 301 turbo motor? I wanna dump the AC compressor, and smoke grinder, and mount the alt. over there. That way, it'll be the P/S pump on the drivers side, and the alternator on the pass. side. The wiring is already there from the 305, but think the set-up would "look" more balanced. If I have that option.
Also, hooked up with the owner/seller of the T5, and we'll be meeting up tomorrow to finalize the transaction. Can't wait to have it in my garage. (Well, maybe in the car too, but one step at a time.) Hope everyone is enjoying their birds, now that the weather is improving. Good time for cruising. :)
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/mad_emoji.png?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/mad_emoji.png?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I'm pissed. POS PB won't up-load my new pics!
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_WC_91_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_WC_91_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I don't know what's going on over there, but this is the only pic it'll take. Don't even know how it got in.
Anyway, got to meet a young guy, and his girlfriend, who were both extra nice. Not only did I get this tranny, but he thru in some extras, that were "fantastic". Such as a bunch of missing hyd. clutch components. When I get to the bottom of this photobucket dilemma, I'll show more.
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It has literally taken me hrs, to figure out Photobucket, and a different layout that they've implemented. It really bites, when in the contact, (help) section, there is no agent to talk to, only troubleshooting tips, that are generic, and not specific to your individual problem. Unbelievable.
Finally got it done, (with no help from them), and will post them, (right after I have my breakfast.)
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And here we go. :)
Found this tranny on the wife's FB market place. Nothing worked out on Ebay, and craigslist, (maybe someone mentioned here) isn't very productive anymore either. I'm told FB market place is currently the "new" favorite, for sales. (How long that'll last, is yet to be seen.)
I saw this tranny listed, with a few corresponding components, and not listed as "World Class". Just as a 91 Camaro T5. It took a bit of coaxing, (thru FB) to determine that it actually "was", a WC tranny, and not from a V6, but a V8. Once I saw the photo of the frt of the case, I wuz sold.
When the wife and I drove to NH for it, we met him and his girlfriend in a parking lot. Both were in their mid 20s, and I was surprised to hear he was interested in these, "old" performance cars. (Good for him). The T-5 and parts were in the bed of his 2004 beat up 4WD Dodge PU, and he also offered me another torque arm, (didn't need, and don't wanna store), and the tilted chevy bellhousing. I could've taken it, and sold it, but he was so generous with the T5, I told him to keep it. And lastly, he pulled out a small box of hardware, and parts, and offered some of them to me. At first glance I told him no, but then I saw the shifter, and amazingly, the entire hyd. clutch system, (that I already purchased off Ebay). Even the pedals were there, which I also have. When I saw the white plastic reservoir wasn't broken, (like the one have now), and also saw some very rare braces for the pedals to the firewall, I couldn't resist, and he gladly handed over the entire box.
He also mentioned, in his car, he had a 3.73 posi, with 4 wheel disc, that he didn't want the 3.73s in there!. I would love to have that entire rear, but don't know if I can work out a deal. We'll see what the future brings.
So here is the contents of the box. Took me a while to figure how how to rotate this picture correctly. It may appear like "junk" to some, but once cleaned up is invaluable...at least to me. If you follow the vertical black hose from the "perfect" plastic reservoir, (which is mounted on the correct bracket)you'll see the M/C mount, and a series of brackets. One is black, and is looped, (looking like a muffler clamp) which I do have, and then 2 rusty looking rod brackets, that I don't have, but was gunna have-ta make. Now I don't. :grin: (They support the pedal bracket, to the firewall, and stiffen it all up when the clutch is depressed.)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_WC_91_002(4).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_WC_91_002(4).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And this was the money shot, that sold the tranny, proving it's a WC. The countergear plug, with it's distinctive rib, and the beefy fine spline input shaft. (Plus the bellhousing he showed me was a V8 bolt pattern, and not the V6).
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_WC_91_003(2).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_WC_91_003(2).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And in this lower photo, you can see the F-body tailhousing and mount, that I still need-ta correct. (The offset). I'm looking harder at it, and Paul mentioned enuff meat to mill it straight, but it appears that'll be a tall order. Maybe, maybe not. Will have to dig deeper.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_WC_91_004(3).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_WC_91_004(3).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
All in all, I'm happy with the purchase,(even if it needs interior work, that I'm told does not) and altho I would rather a TKO, or TKX, I'm happier I saved myself over 2 grand, and have a tranny good enuff for the application, and not an over-kill.
And now, to start figuring out the hyd. clutch, and how to mount the slave.
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I am quite glad this worked out for you.
That said:
(https://www.fandimefilmu.cz/files/images/2018/10/16/article_main_ou6bz383aelvg1gb.jpg)
"Never leave parts on the table"
You are not being greedy; odds are quite good that stuff will simply be binned once they get home. For example: GM made 2 torque arms with different types of corrugation - I found this out when swapping a 85 Tuned Port drivetrain into my 83. The rubber isolator cannot be flipped around. Luckily I had a whole donor car and this issue was quickly rectified.
You can always sell or toss the stuff once the task is completed.
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"Yee Haw!!!, Jester is Dead!" LOL (Cool pic SB.)
Good to know about the torque arm, but I'm pretty sure this'll be my 1st and last 3rd gen. I have enuff, "spare parts" coagulated in my garage, and after 35 yrs of storage, will soon wanna thin out the heard...(on some stuff. Some I'll take to my grave.) I'm not too happy to be storing the crap 305 on the floor, and all the TH700 swap over parts. Sure don't want any more spare parts. just the ones to keep it running.
As for selling them, I usually have that idea, and the parts will be "temporarily" stored....for about 20 yrs or more, and never get sold. I just haven't made the time to do such things, cause everything I have is worth more, at least cleaned up, if not rebuilt. And I just never make the time to do that.
Just lost an hr today, stuck at a TSC, with the Mrs., cause the 4 yr old batteries, in my 93 2500 6.2 diesel stake bed, just crapped out. Fortunately, (after I had them tested ) TSC had them inside, on their shelves, (at a cost of $360 :shock:). Always seems to be something else to fix, such as my leaky garbage disposer, that if I was thinking straight, would've bought a new one when I was out. slipped my mind, for some reason. :-?
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A good parts stash is not a bad thing.
If the 1983 torque arm is "backwards" to what you have the idea of cutting and rotating the arm with a plate would fix that too.
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A good parts stash is not a bad thing.
If the 1983 torque arm is "backwards" to what you have the idea of cutting and rotating the arm with a plate would fix that too.
A good parts stash is bad, when every available space allocated is full, and causes them to sit out-side, under tarps. I hear what you're sayin SB, and it must mean you have quite the storage facility. I envy you. But it's amazing what you can accumulate after almost 50 yrs of collecting.
My 84 T/A's torque arm will bolt originally as intended to the back of this T5. (With minor trimming of the mount bosses that are crooked because of the tilted tranny. I'm not as concerned with that. as I am with making the rear mount straight. But I'll keep you guys posted on how that comes to be. (Once I can get back into the garage.)
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Good or bad - we are all enjoying your build as it is highly unusual and was a real option for GM to pursue in the dawn of the 3rd Gens F's.
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Glad that you found a WC T5! I learned something new too because I looked up how to identify a WC vs. non-WC. I'll keep an eye out at swap meets now. :cool:
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Good or bad - we are all enjoying your build as it is highly unusual and was a real option for GM to pursue in the dawn of the 3rd Gens F's.
Thanks SB, I think it would be kinda cool to see this "tribute" car materialize too. Do I wish I were able to make it "exactly" the way Pontiac would've been mandated by GM corporate/EPA? With it's smoke grinder, EGR, and everything else? Maybe, if I had all that crap. But I don't, and am not spending my precious time looking and paying for it. Junk I would've ripped off, if I ever owned it, back in the day anyway.
And I'm not sure if you guys have seen this video, that's been out there quite a few years. The narrator is a bit monotone, but his channel does do some neat videos. I was glad to stumble across this one, because it was my idea to put this car together, before I knew it existed. Some-one might've already posted it, but I'll do it again, just for GPs, or those that haven't seen it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iovohEChv10
Glad that you found a WC T5! I learned something new too because I looked up how to identify a WC vs. non-WC. I'll keep an eye out at swap meets now. :cool:
I too am still learning about this tranny RG, and according to Paul Cangialosi is the longest running tranny ever built in the history of the automobile. Once again, when it was 1st put into production in the early 80s, it wasn't a very reliable tranny. Even tho it was used in quite a few applications. Ford modified it into the WC in 85, (GM not till 88) which was a big improvement, yet it still wasn't a superduty transmission. I rate it like the Muncie was back in the day. The muncie was nothing, compared to the Ford top-loader, or even the Mopar New Process A833. But that being said, I never had too many complaints with the Muncies I had behind my goats, and T/As. Then again, (all but 1) never had slicks on them. I'm hoping the WC T5 will run like that. Good for a street driver, but be cautious at the track.
Still deciding when and "if" I rebuild this T5, with at least new bearings, seals ,and syncros. And maybe even some after-market heavy duty gears. One step at a time.
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If you decide to rebuild it, there is a place in NJ I think called Hanlon Motorsports that works with T5 transmissions who may be able to help you beef it up a little more. I bought my TR6060 mainshaft from them when the parts were unobtainium online.
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Good to know RG. Thanks for that. I see racing gear-sets for over a grand, but a place called "The Gear Box Shop" outta SC, has a set of gears for less than $600. (Think I might've mentioned it above). But at that price, I don't know if they're stock replacement, or even Chinese. It looks like a good quality overhaul kit, (less gears) costs less than $400, includings syncros. I'll probably just do that, depending what the internals look like. I'll open it up soon, just to gander inside, but really wanna get the slave cylinder mounted..."some-how", 1st.
When I open up the T5, I might pull the tailhousing and compare it to the NWC in the car now. Some-one said the 2 are not interchangeable, but I'm not sure. If they are the same, I might play around with the crooked mount, and see about altering it, for straight up mounting. Or, try and find another tailhousing that has it straight, with the shifter mounted at the rear, like all the F-bodys had. The Mustangs, GM Asto-vans, and S-10s, had the shifter mount on the tailhousing further fwd.
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Instead of milling the mount straight, could you just make something with the opposite angle to make the pad flat? Seems like that would be an easier solution.
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I still believe welding/twisting the arm is the simplest solution.
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Instead of milling the mount straight, could you just make something with the opposite angle to make the pad flat? Seems like that would be an easier solution.
RG, were you spying on me today. I literally just came from a home machinist in town, and talked to him about making a wedge, rather than machining the tail housing. The best case scenario would be to find another tailhousing that was straight, with the shifter in the rear. I haven't found that application, (yet), but supposedly these trannys were in "hundreds" of vehicles over the years, and I'm trying to find a listing that might pin point something like that. For now, I think I'll make a wooden wedge "template", just to see how it works, and maybe give that to the machinist to make for me. Then in the future, if I ever find a better tailhousing, I can swap it out. Good thought tho.
I still believe welding/twisting the arm is the simplest solution.
SB, are you confusing the torque arm mount with the tranny lower mount? To the crossmember? That's what I'm working on right now. I haven't even gotten to the torque arm yet, but will definitely take that idea into consideration. Thanks.
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Torque arm mount.
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The week-end is almost here, and I'll be taking some time off-a work to get something accomplished on the 84. Plan is to
1-make a template "wedge" to mount the tranny mount straight
2-start researching the best way to mount the slave
3-open up the top of the T5, just to examine the guts
Pics to follow....(enjoy your Friday. :))
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Finally got away from home duties, and got some garage time...on the 84. And I'm a bit pumped. :-D
I believe the wedge idea will work, and it turns out it has the possibilities of being better than I had expected. I think most of you, (the 2 of you), realize the problem with the tilted tranny, and tailhousing mount, but in case you've forgotten, here's a new pic of the WC T5 tailend.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_Tailhousing_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_Tailhousing_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I tried to set it up, as straight as possible, so you can see it. Notice how the stud is on an angle. (You can see the torque arm mount issue too, but right now, we're addressing the bottom mount). So I finangled up a piece of 1 1/2 leftover walnut, to fit in the gap on the crossmember.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Unfortunately, I made the wedge about a 1/2" too deep, but it's a start. That photo is of the NWC tranny still in the car. The WC is on the bench, but the tailhousings are identical, (or so I'm told) You may not see it, but the shifter mount top of the tailhousing is touching the floor in the above photo, so I cut a hole, to bring the tranny up about a 1/2" more. Needs a hole anyway, so now's as good a time as any.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_002(1).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_002(1).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I drilled a hole from underneath as a reference point, to cut from above. The hole is about 4"x5". another unfortunate is the console bracketry had to be "altered" a bit, to fit the hole. Guess stick shift consoles are mounted differently. and here's the rough opening from below. The top of the shifter mount, is level with the floor. Would be nice if I could crank it up a 1/2" more, into the console, but not sure where it needs-ta be, right now. (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And to keep this post from being overly long, I'll continue on the next post
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Now the problem is that the mount is 1 1/2" tall, and there's not enuff space to put it under the wedge. But the heavens opened up, and I had an epiphany. In the above photos, you can see the wedge. As mentioned, it's about a 1/2" too deep. And from the top of the crossmember, because it has a "C" channel shape to it, it drops down about 5/8ths. If I cut out the middle section where the webbing is, (and the mount hole slot), and weld a section under it, that will give me the depth needed to drop the mount in. In the photo below, I'm holding the mount from below, showing the location above to cut out.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_adapter_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
The yellow dots show where it needs-ta be cut out. A minor issue to be resolved, is mounting the wedge, because I'll need 2 sets of holes. One set to mount it to the tranny, and the lower set to bolt the mount to the wedge. The bolts will run into each other, but I think there's a way around it. I'll show more, when I get there.
So I think the wedge idea is better than chopping into the tailhousing. The only casualty will be the crossmember, but they're not too hard to come by. And I know everything is still grungy, but I'm just doing the preliminaries right now. I think tomorrow I'll open up the WC T5, and see what it looks like.
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A tad more progress today.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_crossmember_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_crossmember_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
"Hey!, hows that tranny being suspended, W/O a crossmember?" Aren't the motor mounts ripping outta the frame?
Was curious how to pull out the crossmember for modifications, yet leave the tranny in place, to analyze the hyd. clutch slave cylinder mounting. So I came up with this mickey mouse method, just to get by.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_crossmember_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_crossmember_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Because the shifter mount casting is right in line with the tunnel hole, I just stuck some bolts and washers under a brace, to hold it in place. It works pretty good.
Now to clean up the crossmember, and figure out the best way to modify it for a lower mount. Got pulled off it tonite, due to anniversary duties.
Tomorrow I'll post pics of the T5 that I opened up.
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Now to see what the insides of this T5 looks like. Of course Borg Warner couldn't make it easy. B4 you can open the top cover, the shifter rail is casted right into it, so 1st you need-ta pull off the tailhousing.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/013.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/013.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
All in all, it didn't "look" too bad in there.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/014.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/014.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
The only discrepancy so far, "visually", (that I can see), is the 1st gear syncro looks worn out. In this lower photo you can see how close it is to the gear dogs. You can also notice how it's a WC tranny, by the lack of brass rings, but the "Kevlar(?)" material.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/016.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/016.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
On the other side, (2nd gear), the gap is a little better.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/017.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/017.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
So for now, at least, (if nothing more) I could throw in a some new bearings, and syncros, don't see a need for gear replacement. Hopefully the shaft will be OK, on the journal end that the input shaft rollers ride on. Or I can just wash it out, and see what it sounds like. For now, I got other fish to fry. Get the crossmember welded up, the wedge machined, and the hyd. clutch figured out.
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The more I think about the crossmember alteration, (for a depth cut), I was thinking if there might be a thinner mount that I could use.
If the mount is 1 and a half inches tall, is there a thinner mount available that I could use instead. I wish I knew of a 3rd gen T-5 owner, that could fill me in on the height of the tail off the crossmember, or even the distance the shifter mount is to the top of the tunnel. I think I'm overthinking this, but I'm wondering how much my wedge will affect the height. Hmmmm
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Following this.
Great build and pics.
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Thanks Kansas. Glad you're peeking in.
Today was a slow day. Bad sprained knee, (from a run the night B4) kept me down most of the day, but I did get out there to cut open the top of the crossmember, trimmed down the oversized walnut template, and got a better or more accurate measurement for the pocket needed to be fabbed to lower the mount, and take up the excess space from the wedge. I was hoping to be able to weld a simple flat plate to the bottom of the crossmember, but it looks like it'll need it a bit lower. Approx. 3/4" or more drop.
And took a day off from work tomorrow, so hopefully i'll get some more done. Like maybe start figuring out a bracket for the slave.
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You've been busy! Since I'm without a project car now, I love checking in to see your progress. Is there possibly a thinner trans mount that you could use? Rather than making the crossmember deeper? I wished that I could find it, but I remember a few years ago reading someone's build thread and they used a T5, built a wedge, and it worked so nicely. If I can find it, I'll pass it along. Don't believe it was in a third gen though.
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Hello RG. I didn't know there was any other tilted tranny applications, 'cept the 3rd gen F-bodys. Don't know if you read post 133 above, but I made a walnut wedge template to fit something in there temporarily. Seems it could work, if I can work out the fastening issue. And I did mention the idea of finding a thinner mount, or manufacturing one, but think it would take less time to just drop the existing crossmember, rather than research a thinner mount. Good thought tho.
As for the hyd. clutch bracket, I think rather than pursue that at this time, I'm gunna take out the 455 block that is in there to locate the eng. mounts, and drop in the 301T motor, with all it's parts, and see what clearance issues need be addressed. It appears the starter body could claim some space where the slave cylinder will mount. On the chebby application, the starter is on the other side, with the oil filter by the slave. Also the exhausting is a bit different on the Poncho mill, so we'll see how that figures in.
But for now, I'll take the wedge template to the machinist this week, and get his opinion, and get that made, and installed.
After that, the tranny will be located, and mounted, so I can yank the block outta there, and drop in the 301T. (for fitment only, ...at this time)
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What resources do you have on hand?
ie. plasma, mill, welders?
I think the simplest solution is what you kinda did; cut out a rectangle with the mount slots, make a couple steel triangles and tack then weld in position.
Bolts not perpendicular to the holes are not good.
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SB, I have no Bridgeports, or plasma cutters, just your basic home garage tooling. I do have torches, Lincoln arc welder, and a mig welder, but my welds are amatuer at best. I would be confident welding this crossmember tho, but I don't know what area your referring to.
I hear what you're saying about the crooked holes tho. That's my concern too. I was gunna show some possibilities on a drawing, but wasn't sure if anyone understood the issue with fastening. Later I'll draw something up and post it, seeing youve brought it up. Thanks.
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SB, I have no Bridgeports, or plasma cutters, just your basic home garage tooling. I do have torches, Lincoln arc welder, and a mig welder, but my welds are amatuer at best. I would be confident welding this crossmember tho, but I don't know what area your referring to.
I hear what you're saying about the crooked holes tho. That's my concern too. I was gunna show some possibilities on a drawing, but wasn't sure if anyone understood the issue with fastening. Later I'll draw something up and post it, seeing youve brought it up. Thanks.
I have the tools and skill - if you wish to send and return postage the support to me I can cut and weld it up.
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That's a very considerate offer. PM sent. Thanks
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Not a problem - projects like this are the best in this hobby.
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Not a problem - projects like this are the best in this hobby.
100% agree. I love this build.
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Gunna hook up with the machinist after work tomorrow, and show him the wedge, and see if he can conjure up a better method of securing it, than mine. I have a couple possibilities, but neither are perfect. It would be so nice to find a housing that isn't crooked, but all the ones we hear of, don't have the shifter all the way back like the 3rd gens.
So tonite, I'll be "babying" my injured knee, but will spend some time out in the garage, and look over the 301T, and ready it for lifting into the 84. I can't pull out the 455 block, until I get the wedge in place, to hold the tranny on the crossmember. Once it's fitted, i guess I'll just slide the T5 back, drop in the 301T, and stab it back into the flywheel/pilot brg. While I'm at it, guess I'll need ta put in a clutch and TOB, to help with the slave alignment. I have some serviceable "used" stuff to temporarily put in.
Here's a couple pics of the crossmember that I hacked up. With the wedge in place the mount will need to be dropped, but I'm just not sure "exactly" how much, till I get it finally located. I cut out the center a bit bigger than the widest point of the mount. I don't have a pic of the real one, cause I stuck it back on the tranny under the car, but it's as deep as the round one from the 700 in the back. There is a shot of one mount with the rubber ripped off, and I was contemplating using a thinner piece of rubber on the ripped one in the pic, as an afterthought, or last resort.
If you'll notice the wedge in the foreground, I drew on a possible fastener idea, with some drilled and tapped holes, or on the other side, (not shown), just a couple thru holes. But both methods have their drawbacks. I'll have-ta see what the machinist recommends.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
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https://www.hotrodworks.com/product/ford-t5-to-chevrolet-muncie-bell-housing/
I saw this article and it made me think about your dilemma with the crooked transmission. Would you be able to rotate the transmission on the bellhousing and re-drill some holes to straighten out the mount? probably not the best solution, but depending on how much material is there it could work.
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I've seen those adapters RG, and had contemplated it too. (Post #86) And it was a possibility. I had actually contemplated it to use a Ford T5, because their mounts are straight up. But there are others dilemmas with them, such as in and output shaft differences, along with the shifter in the wrong place. And for some reason, I just don't like adapters, if I can get around it. Something about altering the distances scare me. Driveshaft yoke, pilot bearing depth, ect, ect.
I don't even like the wedge idea, but for now, it seems the simplest and cheapest. Someday, i hope to find a tailhousing from "who knows what?" application, that will become available.
I did bring the template, tailhousing, and mount to the machinist, and he says he'll work it this week. So to hold me over, i'll be working on the 301T, and readying it for installation, (and maybe a bit more).
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Amazing how much crap can be collected in over 30 yrs. Still re-arranging "stuff" in my garage, so I can have better access to the 301T. I mentioned above how I was contemplating mounting the alternator on the passenger side of the eng., and leaving the P/S pump where it is, but the bracketry doesn't work like that, so more alterations will be needed. Glad I found this machinist who maybe able to assist with this, depending what I need. The frt of the 301T has this elaborate mess of tubing and pads that route the AIR smoke thru the heads, that I plan on removing and plugging. I'll post some pics of it later, when I get going.
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Gentlemen, I've just experienced "another" OMG moment. :shock: (In a "great" way)
But 1st, you'll have-ta patiently wait. (LOL)
I finally made some floor space around the 301, so I can begin fitting it. In this photo below, you'll see an entire disaster around the engine, but it's a whole lot better, after a few nights of "re-arranging". Also, I cleaned off a shelf to put some of the 301 stuff on.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
In the brown shelf photo above, see the 4 bbl intake? It totally blows me away how flat it is. Reminds me of olds. I picked it up, (yrs ago) cheap, off-a Ebay. Figured after I rebuild the 301, it'll be easier to get started, (for break in) rather than trying to get running thru the turbo, and intake system. (Still need a couple exhaust manifolds for a "non-turbo" 301, if anyone has any to sell) Also have some .030 over new pistons in the white box next to it, for a non turbo motor. Will bump up the compression, a touch. Found them on Ebay, cheap also.
Once I was able to move the stand around, I rolled out a wooden box that has been stored for years, and was happy to find the accessories for the frt of this 301T motor, along with the eng. harness, the computer box for the dist., and knock sensor. Even have the original P/S pump that I'll need-ta fit, because the chevy bracketry is different.
And I mentioned above, I'ld like to put the alt., on the passenger side? I find that the chevy upper bracket, (with minor mods), might even work on the 301. No pic on that ...yet.(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And in order to keep this post from being to lengthy, my next one will be the "OMG" experience.
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So, as I'm rummaging through my "box of goodies", what does my wandering eyes catch a glimpse of?
"I can't believe it?" (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/shocked.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/shocked.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Of course, everyone recognizes this, right? Do you guys remember how long I've been looking for one of these? I've forgotten how long. (That's what happens when you get old, you forget alot)
It "is" a 3rd gen., (82- early 83) mechanical Z bar!!!!! With all the linkage and brackets! Man, I can't believe I have this, and haven't a clue when I got it. Maybe 5-10 yrs ago, when I got the pedals? Don't know, but am ecstatic to have it. I posted a pic of a member on the "brand X "site a while ago, (post 99) who had 3 of these, but wouldn't part with one. Now I can go over there, and rub it in his face. :lol:
Anyway, I have the hyd. system "partially installed, and was mentioning having to fab a way to mount the slave cylinder. Now, I don't have to. (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/dance_guy_-_Page_1.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/dance_guy_-_Page_1.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I hung it off the ball on the 301, just to see it.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_stuff_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
So, maybe I should be a little up-set, because I have "2" hyd. systems for this car, (one was free, and isn't complete), and one that "might" work. Won't know till I get it bled. But I would rather have the mech., even if many say it's a "crap" design, and I can definitely see it's weak points. But because I won't be driving the hell out it, and won't have a stiff clutch, I'm hoping it'll be OK. If not, I still have hydraulics to fall back on. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm stickin to it. :smile:
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at least you did not buy off epay and then find your old one...
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at least you did not buy off epay and then find your old one...
LOL. that's usually my life, in a nutshell. :lol:
(I can't believe this is still "page 4" Talk about long winded)
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All caught up Joe (me that is with your build). Great job and I love the offers from other TACres.
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All caught up Joe (me that is with your build). Great job and I love the offers from other TACres.
I agree Jack. That's why I'm still here. Good people on this site. Wondering if you or your sons have installed the carb yet.
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That's fantastic you found the Z bar! What great luck you have there. I'd go out and buy a lotto ticket haha. :lol:
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Government takes enuff of my money RG. I haven't bought any tickets in yrs, and don't plan on starting again.
But you're right, I'm glad I found it, and it's good I haven't gotten deeper into the planning, or fabbing, but I wish I had remembered sooner. Oh well.
Got my wedge just now, and will be playing with it tonite, so pics to come.
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(OK, let's see if we can get off pg 4)
Nothing complicated here, but a lot nicer than if I were to whack it out with a hammer and chisel. (It's aluminum)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
We all knew the bolts would be angled too, but I'll get some 3/8ths tapered bushings, (or make some). I hear they're available, but haven't looked into where yet. Grainger? MSC?
Below you'll see how much affect there is on the height of the mount to crossmember.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Once again, this is with the shifter mount flush with the opening in the tunnel.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_crossmember_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_crossmember_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I really have no idea where the tailshaft should be relative to the crossmember. I wish I knew of someone who had a 3rd gen/T5, that could give me a clue. As it sits, I could go up higher by an inch, but it would put the shifter plate in the console. Is that wrong? If I drop it an inch, then the pocket on the crossmember will need to be even deeper. Should it? I'm not sure if the automatic, to manual 3rd gen crossmembers are different. This one is from the TH700. Maybe I can see it in the photos of me dropping the 700. I'll have-ta go looking.
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So I wuz able to dig thru some older photos, and found this one I took before taking anything apart. And it looks pretty promising, in that the tailshaft is higher in the tunnel, compared to closer to the crossmember.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_TA_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_TA_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/T5_wedge_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Well, not really a good comparison. Pictures aren't right, but the top one you can see the mount build-up on the TH700.
I don't think I'll need-ta drop the tranny any lower, so now I'll need-ta make a pocket for it to sit in. Or should it go higher?
I'll have-ta research some more on the brand X site, and see if anyone has any photos of the tails height location.
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That wedge looks great, nice work. I can't wait to get my mill fired up to be able to do projects like this. :cool:
What I did on both my Trans Am and Camaro when building mounts and setting up the engine/trans combo was to get a measurement on the angle of the motor. The goal is to have the engine/trans tilted down 3-4* to match the pinion angle of the rear end. However on a Third gen, you may want to see what the angle of your pinion is and match the engine angle. I would almost guess it would be less given that you have a much nicer rear suspension setup than us on leaf springs.
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Sorry for the delay in responding. I'm trying to configure a plate to weld to the bottom of my crossmember. I hacked off something from a piece of 1/4" thick, 3" square tubing, but it's not fitting like I want yet. It appears by the height of the TH700 tailhousing, (where the bottom of the rear seal is), is about a little less than 4" off the crossmember. (Maybe 3+7/8ths). In the photos above, mine is only 3", so I cranked it up almost an inch, which'll put the bottom of the mount "almost" flush with the bottom channel of the crossmember. So my plan is to get this plate to fit, and weld it on, and then maybe look at the torque arm mount. I'm still hoping I'll be able to use the existing 3 bolt mount pad on the tailhousing, even tho it's tilted. Just need-ta square it up. Was thinkin maybe using those offset bushings behind the plate (?)
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Had a trying day in the garage this afternoon. It's difficult for me cutting steel stock, W/O good equipment, such as a plasma cutter, or even a metal bandsaw. I had tried a piece of thickwall square tubing days ago, but after more time invested than I wanted, I had-ta scrap it, and try something else. After digging deeply into my pile of....junk, I found a slab of 1/4" stock, that I cut a piece to size. Then I tack welded it into place. But because it's butted to the bottom of the channel iron looking crossmember, I'm not confident enuff with my welding capabilities, and seeing the load of the back of the eng. and tranny will be resting on it, I'll bring it to work, and have one of the professionals do it.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_001(1).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_001(1).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_002(1).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_002(1).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Once I get it back, I'll clean it up, and put some color to it. Still nursing my injured knee from 2 weeks ago. Has slowed me down a bit, and it doesn't help i have-ta be on my feet most of the day at work. Oh well, the pitfalls of getting older.
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Haven't forgotten about you guys, just been pretty busy. Here's the crossmember, and it installed. The welder in work did such a nice job with the tig. I'll post more tomorrow, when I get a chance. Lots to show. Here's a taste.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_002(2).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_002(2).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_001(2).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember_001(2).JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_crossmember.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
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That weld looks smooth and strong. So now you have the whole rear mount thing done and on to other things!
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(Hi Bob, I was just in the middle of this post, when I wuz notified of yours. Thanks :))
So, as far as the mount goes, (with the exception of acquiring the angled bushings/washers for the mount bolt heads), I think I'm satisfied where I'm at, and began looking at the torque arm mounting. I could've sworn someone here (maybe scarebird?) commented on the differences on that mount. Some rubber bushings accept a torque arm facing passenger side, and some are molded to the drivers side. I'm referring to the way the end of the torque arm is captured between the rubber in the clamp.
The newly acquired T5 had the F-body torque arm clamp already bolted to it, so I "tried" to install it to the "mule" T5 currently under the car. After bolting the new crossmember to it, and in place, ( as my luck would have it), the bracket for the torque arm "can't" be installed, unless you drop the tranny back down. :-x (Which I had-ta do). Once in place, this is what it looked like
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Torque_arm_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Torque_arm_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Notice the shape of the cut-outs in the rubber. It's "backwards" from the T/A that I have . (Naturally). So I went to the original TH700, and pulled the mount from it, to maybe see if it'll fit. (Of course not)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Torque_arm_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Torque_arm_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
You can see the mount plate doesn't even come close to the mount bosses on the tail housing. So somehow I need-ta figure a way of reversing the rubber in the T5 mount. I'll also need to see if I can find the thread where some-one had already discussed this, but I've forgotten where. :-?
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Another night sidetracked from garage duties. Spent my free time, (the past 2 nights) looking for a lost earing for my daughter, who dropped it, and it took off into nowhere land. Almost to the point of opening up walls. :???:
But I have been researching the above concern with the torque arm mount, and don't think it'll be a big deal, once I commit myself to it. In the interim, I've also been dabbling with not only the front of the 301T accessories, but the mech. clutch system. I'm ecstatic that I found all those parts, and was trying to figure a way to make the factory linkage fit the BOP bell. I have the 3rd gen fork, which has a slight (favorable) bend, that the Pontiac TOB fork doesn't have. I'll post more details on it later, but will say I was contemplating reworking the BOP bell by lowering the pivot ball (for the fork, in the B/H), when I was informed, (from a brand X forum), that there was a "common" bell housing used in 1982 (only), that had not only the dropped clutch fork pivot ball, but a "uni-bell" bolt pattern!! Not just for the chebby motor, but the BOP. One that I just found on the net, and will have it in a few days.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/82_bellhousing.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/82_bellhousing.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I wuz trying to come up with a way of Mickying the ball in one of my BOP bells, trying to figure the exact place to relocate it, and will it interfere with the ribbing, or lower bolt hole, and open up, and trim away the casting material where the fork protrudes from, But I decided just now, I'll pay the cash, and get the right one. Save me that much more screwing around.
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That's a great find! I had no idea those existed.
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That is a really good find! What's the part number for that bell?
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Howdy men,
The P/N for the bell is 14037657, (natch a GM #), and was kindly supplied by a member on the other site. I've never seen one, and have scowered many bone yards and swap meets in over 40 yrs of this hobby, and didn't know it existed either. I do still have in my stash, a TH200R4 from a 86 Chevy wagon, with an Olds 307 motor, and it also has a uni-bell. First time I ever saw one. Guess it was an 80s GM thing. Don't know how many were made, but I'll bet the 82 bell is getting scarce. and I wuz just informed, it will be arriving tomorrow. :grin:
Now to get back out there, and play with the torque arm clamp. And by the way, has anyone heard of a "bevel" washer? Or a radius washer? They're made to take up minor angle imperfection, and that's what I need under the bolt heads of the tranny mount. I acquired a couple bevel washer today, and will see how they fit. (Pics to come). But I kinda like the style of the radius ones I was shown, but haven't gotten them the right size.
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It's a Sat., and I've needed to fell a tree in my backyard, (for over a yr), and am just getting around to it. But all wasn't perfect, I wasn't confident, got distracted, and then...the uni-bell showed up, so the tree can wait. Decided to show you guys some pics, before I continue.
The photo above shows the basic uni-bell, but I wanted to show the differences between "it", and a regular BOP bell. Wanted to know where not only the fork pivot ball location is, but the hole for the fork lever to protrude. Hopefully these will help some-one.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/82_uni-bell_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/82_uni-bell_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/82_uni-bell_009.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/82_uni-bell_009.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And the fork above is from a 3rd gen, (chevy), and can you see the bend in the lever? I don't have a second gen one at this time to lay out, but it doesn't hardly bend at all. That bend would help clear the floor pan in the 3rd gen, if you ended up using the original BOP bell, and not relocate the fork piot. Not sure what it'll look like, till I get all in place.
One "potential" problem I see is the relief casting for the nose housings of the starter. The "bulges" in the uni-bell, are a bit smaller, (about 1/2 the size) than the original. I hope it doesn't lead to a starter issue. Worst case scenario, I'll need-ta open them up. They're just covers for the starter anyway.
In the clutch linkage photos below, you'll notice the Z bar in place. I need one missing bracket that attaches to the frame side, so currently it's just laid in place. The "S" shape of the tube is needed to clear the floor pan, unlike the 2nd gens, (and everything else for the past 50 yrs). To this day, I don't understand those designers reasoning. It's got to do with the eng. set so far back, into the tunnel.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_clutch_linkage_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_clutch_linkage_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_clutch_linkage_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_clutch_linkage_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Also, amazingly, the link going to the pedal, has a bend in it, and it actually fits into the thru hole I cut for the hyd. master cylinder. I'm happy about that, but can see how the design is inferior, due to all those bends, and the unwanted stress in operation. Fortunately the travel is minimal.
And to conclude this lengthy post, pics below are for you to see the clearance issue to the floor, with the clutch fork lever location, in the BOP bell. Very close. With the new bell, it'll be 1" lower, and will not only clear that, but maintain the correct factory geometry. If you look hard enuff you'll see the lower lever is a bit "beat-up", and will need some attention.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_clutch_linkage_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_clutch_linkage_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_clutch_linkage_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_clutch_linkage_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And that's all for now folks. Was wondering about the placement of the photos side by side, or stacked. Any preferences?
Hmmm. Looks like they'll be stacked anyway.
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Had it out with the torque arm tonight, and altho it wasn't fun, I'ld call it a draw. 1st time battling with that ridiculous component, and it was a tough learning curve. Not easy when it's just one person, 2 arms, hands, and 1 foot.
The goal was to try and see if the rubber could be reversed, because of the difference in the two mounts. The original TH700 TA, (torque arm) was facing the pass. side, and the other mount that came with the newer T5, was facing the other way. Below is the newer T5 mount, (backwards).
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/torque_arm_mount_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/torque_arm_mount_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I removed the rivets securing the rubber mount to each bracket. Once apart, I learned you can't just replace them to the opposite bracket, and expect the holes for the rivets to line up. They're backwards..(duh) :???:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/torque_arm_mount_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/torque_arm_mount_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I tried removing the rubber from its metal backing plate with a razor knife, (mistake) to maybe glue it back on the right way. Once I got one side, (the outer bracket) rubber off, I saw how I screwed up because any of my glues wouldn't be strong enuff to hold it thru the perils and road abuse it would incur in daily operations. So I left the larger main one still connected to its own backing plate. In the photo below, the rubber is installed in the right direction, but not secured yet. Just for testing purposes.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/torque_arm_mount_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/torque_arm_mount_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
The main battle came, while installing it back on the car. Trying to pry the upward loaded TA down, and to the side, to make room for the rubber mount, (which needed to be slid into place, from the frt) was a major test of patience. I lost it on that one.
But after multiple attempts, and many newly invented 4 letter designations, I finally got it. Probably about a 1/2 hr to get the rubber halves in place. :-x
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Torque_arm_mount_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Torque_arm_mount_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Torque_arm_mount_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Torque_arm_mount_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I believe what I'll end up doing, is removing the rubber fillers, (from the TH700 mount) "and" leaving their backing plates intact, and re-riveting them to the newer T5 brackets, then it'll all be fine. And once the rubber is facing the right way, I'll move onto figuring how to mount the bracket to the tailhousing. You can see it above, how the end of the TA is twisted in the mount, because of the tilted tranny.
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"2nd verse, same as the 1st".
Nothing more than a repeat from the previous post, with the exception that the rubber pads are from the TH700, and fit the brackets of the T5.
Found that chistling the heads off the retaining rivets from yesterday, isn't as easy as you'ld think. They're made of Kryptonite, and squashed in very tight. So tonite, I used the drill press on the rivets, to at least weaken them. They still were resistant, but not as bad as yesterday.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TA_mount_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TA_mount_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Once they were removed, they fit right onto the T5 mounting brackets, like intended. This time, facing the right direction. Below they're the ones marked in yellow, and all the surroundings are the left-overs from the TH700 brackets, mixed with the backwards T5 rubber.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TA_mount_005_4pzpGrjdYPp9m6deWf6ihz.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TA_mount_005_4pzpGrjdYPp9m6deWf6ihz.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And once back under the car, and everything bolted tighter, the fit of the TA to the rubber grommets, altho still twisted, not so bad. I think when I bolt it together at final, I'll remove the spacers on the lower bracket bolts, and add them to the upper bolt area, which will tilt it back straight.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TA_mount_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/TA_mount_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And if you remember my dilemma with the BOP bell, and the clutch fork hitting the floor pan, (almost), before I can fiangle the 3rd gen Z-bar levers, I need-ta get the uni-bell in place, to line everything else, which means, pull the 455 M/T block, and drop in the 301T, (with the flywheel clutch and uni-bell), to the T5 in the car. And the fun continues.
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Spent a night cleaning the garage, (yesterday), and ended up tearing it apart...again... tonight. Frantically searching for a missing alt/P/S bracket. Know I had it, (30 yrs ago), can't find it now. Found some similar ones, but not the right one. Not that I need it right now, to test fit the eng., just when I get focussed with 1 thing, I hate leaving it incomplete. I've been piecing the accs. together for a few days here and there, and getting closer. Below is the aluminum bracket, which bolts to the drivers side head.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301_acc..jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301_acc..jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
The top photo looks better than the condition of my eng. right now. (Neither are mine) The bottom one looks 20 times better. Wish I could find that mount bracket.
Totally forgot to say how much time I spent a couple days ago unburying my "serviceable" clutch stash, looking to mock it up when installing the 301T eng. Already have the 301 flywheel, but needed a pressure plate, and disc. After digging out 6 flywheels, (including a V-6 Buick one, and a chebby), and 2 diaphragm pressure plates, of course both were 11", and the 301 is a 10 1/2. Guess I'll be springing for a new clutch, (which I would be buying later anyway.) I can't believe what they get for them now. It doesn't seem that long ago, they were $25 for each, pressure plate and disc. TOB? $10. Pilot brg? $2. :???:
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I guess basically, this has become my diary. So be it.
I wuz fortunate enuff to find an alt/p/s bracket off the net, and says it won't be arriving for a couple weeks. So much for focussing on accessory installs. And now comes the time to get the flywheel sand blasted and cleaned up, and finding a clutch for it. I'll get some pics up for those of you who care. Today I have a tree to drop, and cut up, and 2 tons of anthracite to unload off my tuck and trailer and store. So garage fun will be waiting a bit. :sad:
P.S. This is a long page 5, no?
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I like diaries!
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LOL. I did one years ago, on another forum for coal stoves. Still gets lots-a peeks. :smile:
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Good news, I hear that we have some rain in the forecast for the next few days. Meaning my back yard outside duties will be put on hold, and can justify more garage work. I'll have-ta scope out the locals, and see if I can get a new clutch for this car, and because I have an entire weeks vacation off-a work, I should be able to get the 301T between the fenders. See what kind of clearance issues with the exhaust, (I'm curious about the down pipe, and crossover), and maybe get more info on the clutch linkage. More to come.
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I like diaries!
Same here. And pics are always welcome.
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Plenty more to come. Photobucket will be busy this year. (Hope my computer doesn't run outta space.) :?
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Was fortunate enuff to find a local parts store with a clutch kit for my application. (Almost)
How bout this. A 3200 LB, Ram clutch, to handle all the power this mighty 301 turbo motor can deliver. :grin:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_clutch_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_clutch_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds).
Looks good, right? In reality, it's nothing more than a stock replacement NAPA kit. Less than a buck fifty. I just painted it red, to "look" cool. LOL. Hey, if the kids can do it to their brake calipers, then why can't I? Wish I could've found a temporary fill-in for the mock-up, but my junk pile (below) just didn't cooperate. All my leftovers PP's are for 11" clutches.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_clutch_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_clutch_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Did clean up the 301 externally balanced flywheel I purchased used about 8 yrs ago. Now to search for some flywheel fasteners. (And a starter...for fitting)
Lost another battle with my accessory brackets. Found that the alt. bracket I had, "wasn't" fiting the 301, so the search continues. See a bunch on the net, for more $ than I wanna spend, if I could only find the originals. :sad:
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Not that I need it right now, to test fit the eng., just when I get focussed with 1 thing, I hate leaving it incomplete.
Just like me!
The red color looks great and makes it stronger.
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The red color looks great and makes it stronger.
Funny stuff Bob. That red kinda matches the red in my 73 avatar.
I've about giving up looking for them brackets. Gunna have-ta buy from the net. :sad:
Spent countless hrs ripping thru sheds, and boxes, inside and out. Even went thru a steel rack in my garage "again", this time looking for those brackets. No dice. At least it's organized...again. In the pic below, in the corner of my garage, you can actually see the the floor. 1st time in yrs. :)
(The orange braced metal rack is the next one to organize, but it'll take "months".)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_2022_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_2022_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
The 301 has been sitting there, forever, waiting for now. I made room in frt of the 84, and am finally getting to prep the 301 for lifting in. Still would like to get the starter found, and on it. Guess I could put it in from underneath. Think I'll prop up the T5, which is still installed, and install the eng to it, rather than vice versa. Will I be able to engage to the input to the clutch? With the mounts, and brackets loose...maybe?
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_2022_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_2022_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_2022_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_2022_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
That motor sure is grungy, ain't it? And what's up with NAPA? Went to buy some eng. degreaser, (Gunk, or Gumout), and they say they can't get any.
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"And the band plays on". (Temptations)
What a day. But another step accomplished. Got the 301T in between the fenders, and the T-5 installed too. Wasn't pretty, and it still isn't, but it does look promising. Started off leaving all the externals on, but when beginning to lower it in, needed to start stripping down, for clearance reasons. Talk about a shoe-horn fit.
By the way, the uni-bell? Doesn't work. Fits the block, but only when there's no flywheel. Hits on the bottom, and won't allow dowel engagement...by about 1/2 an inch. Not the end of the world. At least I can use it as a Polish blue-print for the fork location. Then up for sale.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_003.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
1st removed the clutch fan, and lower crossover pipe, because of the eng. set-back past the firewall, the pipe would've hit the K-frame whilst lowering it in.
And also for the knowing, there was no way to mate the eng. to the tranny, cause the input shaft was too far fwd, and also prevented lowering the eng. past the K-frame. So out came the T5. (darn torque arm.) This is when I envy the 70-72 Monte Carlo owners. Tons of room under the hood.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Played around lining up the lower frame mounts, and ran into problems with the rear carb connection, hitting the wiper motor. (Eh. Who needs wipers?) So off came the QJ. Once the carb was off, got the mount holes lined up with some bolts loosely installed. Back under the car to install the T5. For those of you who have done this, isn't it a great feeling when it finally slips into the pilot brg? Loved it. :smile:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_011.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_011.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_009.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_009.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And once all was snugged up, I could release the chain fall, and lower the car back to Earth. 'Amazingly"!!!, the Z-bar installed itself. I left it connected to the pedal link, and just moved it back, when lowering the eng. in. Once done, I looked up, and there it was, sitting on the ball. It's super close to the exhaust manifold, but looks like it'll work. :grin:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_010.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_010.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Hard to see in that photo, but you can see how the bent fork gives a bit more pan clearance. (Up on post 172, you can see the difference) Wondering about reworking the floor a 1/2" for the necessary room.
So much for this session. Think it's long enuff. Don't wanna trip the reset on the puter. More to follow, tomorrow. OFN.
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Man you are really making some great progress! It's early as I read this but if the uni-bell doesn't fit with the flywheel then how did you slipp the trans in to the pilot bearing?
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Wow Joe, great progress. I'm still here reading along! I don't always post, but I'm definitely here waiting for the next update. I'm living through you until I can get my own project haha.
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Morning Luke, (And also RG, just saw your post as I wuz typing) Are we still on page 5? Talk about long winded.
In the photos above, you can see I used the original BOP bell, not the uni-bell. The Pontiac flywheel/flexplate ring gear diameter, is 14", tip to tip of the tooth. The 84 T/A chebby 305 ring gear is only a foot, plus a 1/2". I also found in my stash, a flexplate with a 13.5 ring gear, and think it might be from a Buick V6. (70s era). And contrary to popular belief, the 301 flywheel is not smaller diametrically, but does only have a 10.5 clutch, not an 11", like all the late 70s T/As. I also measured the diameter of a chevy truck flywheel from 1980, and it was big, like the Pontiac, even a fraction larger. So it just goes to show, not all GM ring gears are the same. And the uni-bell? Wasn't intended for a 1982 301 TA install. Curious what it was designed for.
As for sliding the tranny into the pilot, no different from any other install. Altho when I slid the new bronze pilot brg onto the input shaft of the WC tranny on the bench, it was a line to line fit. No play at all. Was wondering about catching it under the car. And it took a bit of wiggling, and wobbling of the back of the tranny, to finally get it to drop in. Unfortunately, I'll have to do it again, for real, at the end of this project. Now to put together some more pics of yesterdays outing.
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And here she sits, in all its (dirty, filthy) glory. LOL
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_014.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_014.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I love the fact the QJ will be "directly" under the power bulge. Can we actually call this a Ram Air motor? (Guess with the turbo, it kinda is) :lol:
Anyway, the RHS of the compartment isn't so bad, now that the A/C evaporator is gone. The manifolds just barely fit in, but the down pipe will need some "massaging" underneath. You can see how it won't reach the turbo.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_013.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_013.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
The drivers side is a bit more crowded. The exhaust manifold fits fine, it's the top of the turbo/carb manifold, that shoves everything against the firewall. I believe the brake booster will have clearance, just tight to the wiper motor. Curious about the air cleaner to hood clearance.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_012.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_012.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_015.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_015.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And at the frt of the motor, it appears the radiator and shroud will be OK too.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_016.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301T_fitting_016.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And today, more rain. Almost 3 days straight, on my vacation. Like I said, gives me more justification to be in the garage, and not yard work. This is the mess I left, waiting to be cut-up, and hauled away.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Tree_Felling_012.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/Tree_Felling_012.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Now to get the car up in the air, and see how the driveshaft fits, and the continuation of the mechanical clutch linkage. :???:
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What part of the flywheel does the unibell hit - the ring gear or the main body?
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The very bottom SB. Maybe I could cut off a piece, and make it look like the inspection hole on the bottom of the BOP bells, but I really don't wanna cut it up. I mention before how the bullnoses for the starters, (one on each side) are half the size of the BOP bells, so would that cause a problem too? Don't know, and at this point' ain't gunna find out. I'm pretty sure I can make the BOP bell work.
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I was thinking more relieving the flywheel with a bevel.
You may also bevel the opening to clear with a coarse grit belt sander. Moving the clutch fork pivot does not fill me with confidence - that being the fulcrum and under constant loading,
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Way too much material to remove SB. When I caught one dowel in the bell, and pivoted the bell on it, trying to bring it up to the other side dowel, it wouldn't come close. Almost an inch away. At least 1/2 an inch. Like I said above, the 305 ring gear is a full inch and a half smaller.
I had the same concern with the fork pivot ball too. But if you think of it, when you press the pedal, the fork is being pressed against the ball, not pulling or twisting. Kinda shoving it into the frt of the tranny case. And the location can be off by an 1/8th or so, because of the push rod from the Z bar. I can get pretty close, with this uni-bell as a blueprint.
But I'm hoping the fork will clear the floor pan, (or I'll make clearance), so I can use it as is. The only concern is the leverage factor of being closer to the Z bars lower lever push rod hole, and the distance it'll travel. Playing with some geometry here, but once again, it can be worked out.
And before I get back under the car, I decided to put the hood back on, and get the car washed of all the accumulated dirt it's collected since being in the garage. Got a taste of the power bulge hood system, and factory air cleaner housing, and the limited clearance there. I also stuck in the radiator, shroud, and brake booster, to see those issues. Very tight there too. (air cleaner to wiper motor, and master cylinder). Trying not to go to an aftermarket air cleaner, if I can help it. More pix coming.
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Looks like a custom fabbed cold air system will be needed, or a heavily modified stock set-up. This is what the pan looks like and the factory 80 air cleaner housing, with the 84 top. (which has the cold air hole sealed to the top). Amazingly, Looks like it would've lined up, now that the top is rotated 180° from original.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_009.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_009.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And this is a shot with the air cleaner assy on, but the hood won't close, stripped of all the pan and guts.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_006.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
With the air cleaner off, and no plastic pan under the hood, this is what it looks like to the carb.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_008.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_008.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/84_powerbulge_007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
About 4" from the bottom of the hood, to the carb flange for the filter housing. Finding a dropped housing from a vette, or something similar won't work, cause there's too many components to interfere under it.
Not a big surprise, and will deal with it more in the future. Just wanted to see where it was at. At least the QJ is centered under the hood bulge, and looks good there. One of the main reasons I'm doing this swap. Next, is get it in the air, and get under it.
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Your patience is amazing!
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Joe, you are making so much forward progress I love it!! I think the fact that it's close is what is key. Is there anyway to modify where the intake that the carb bolts in order to gain some clearance? Or possibly put the air cleaner in the stock plastic piece in the hood?
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Your patience is amazing!
LOL. Sarcasm will get you everywhere Mike. But thanks if you're serious. :lol:
Joe, you are making so much forward progress I love it!! I think the fact that it's close is what is key. Is there anyway to modify where the intake that the carb bolts in order to gain some clearance? Or possibly put the air cleaner in the stock plastic piece in the hood?
Close? I don't know RG, I've got a "LONG" way to go. But like you said, at least we're moving in the right direction. Figuring out the snags is the hard part. The rebuild will be easier. I appreciate the input from you guys.
As for lowering or modifying the plenum that the carb is on, it's kinda like a tunnel ram. All cast aluminum, in a particular shape, that machining down is way past my skills. But I do like your idea, of modifying some of the air cleaner pan and filter.
I already had-ta trim the back of the stock 80 T/A base housing where it was hung up on the wiper motor. Might have-ta do that next to the master cylinder too. And I think when I shut the hood, with the plastic pan above removed, and just the base of the air cleaner installed, the hood would hit the frt of the housing. (Because of the rake in the hood design) If I can trim that down some, and the filter element isn't too tall, maybe a can use a flat piece of sheet metal, or cut down a smaller diameter top, (from say a 2bbl), to hold the filter down. Then it would be totally open, around the filter element, "inside" the stock housing, sort-ta like the look of the shaker on the 2nd gen. And then take the plastic pan from above, (which is mostly flat and enclosed, with a small 4" opening), and open it up fully to allow the stock diameter base housing to seal against it. Maybe, maybe ,maybe. LOL. just talking out loud right now, but I'll get back to it, in a few.
Right now, it's the 1st day I've seen the sun since the beginning of my vacation. I now have a ton of tree branches and brush to collect, (hopefully it's not too wet), and truck it over to the dump. But B4 that, right now, I need-ta call Joe at TTA, and get his advice on the little 301. Back soon. :smile:
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Didn't get anything done on the car today, (yard clean-up), but did have an interesting discussion with Joe at TTA performance this morning. He's been on the 301 garage for quite some time, (think he was an administrator), and is super knowledgeable on this engine. He's the man to see, now that the garage is closed. He gave me some great advice concerning mods, and tuning, and will be very instrumental, and key to my build. Can't wait to get into it. :smile:
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Did Joe say why the site closed down?
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No, he didn't Mike. I got the impression he wasn't in contact with the other Joe. "Rickter" (?) I think was his last name.
The only thing I knew about him was his site has been up for about 20 yrs (?), and that he was a pilot. I believe he was on this site too, wasn't he? Kinda ran the 301 area here. (?) I don't know. Once again, I hope he's OK.
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Yes. Joe Richter started 301T. We used to talk quite a bit, and I sent him any 301t engine stuff I ran across. He flew a commercial airliner; I want to say it was a MD-80. He stopped communicating with me a couple years ago, seems like, and the site too.
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Such a shame. Would've been nice if he at least explained it to his members. That's what makes me think the worst.
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Joe,
Although I have not commented on your project in some time, I have been following it very closely. I am impressed at the progress you have made in a relatively short time span and the obstacles you have overcome. To my knowledge no one has attempted putting a turbo 301 in a third generation TA, I find this very interesting and exciting. Thanks for keeping us in the loop with all the details!
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Appreciate the comments, 5th. glad you're enjoying the build. But I can't take credit for being the 1st. The video link below was a member of another forum we both belonged to, and he had the jump on me, when I began contemplating this. (Probably 10 yrs ago). His is a sad story, but believe I've already posted this. Here it is again, for anyone interested.
In the comment section of his video, go to his reply in the bottom comment. He explains his story a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI3p18_owcg
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Still in fall time yard clean-up mode, but getting impatient to get back into the garage. Received a few mail-order things finally, and will post them soon. :?
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I see great progress and you cleaned up your garage. I will go back and read in detail but did you resolve closing the hood issue?
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Hello Jack. Good to have you back home. You have become very "worldly" haven't you?
You made me laugh, when you mentioned I "cleaned" my garage. LOL. My garage cleaning duties are a never ending battle. i'll clean a section one day, and destroy all my work the next day. :mad: I posted a thread somewhere recently, where I had cut an 80 T/A into pieces. It was the car the 301T came outta. I showed pics of it whole, and cut-up, and my garage was pretty M/T back then. It looked much better than today. But that was 30 yrs ago. Cleaning takes so much time, and working for a living just eats into the time so badly. i wish there were 36 hrs to a day, so I could get more done. Sleeping doesn't help either.
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I hear you. I'd rather spending my time on a project than cleaning. Hence why my shop is always a mess....
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There are people that can't work that way. (I envy them). They say, "I can't be stepping over stuff, and looking for stuff that gets buried. I'ld rather be organized". And I get it. But I know, (for me), I can accomplish more by working, rather than cleaning.
Maybe I just slow down when I'm cleaning, cause i'm not really rushed. But when I'm working, I set goals to be at, before finishing a task. Which usually takes me to suppertime, (or even bed-time) depending what I'm doing. Then, (the next day), if I've completed a step, 'then" I'll clean, before beginning the next stage. But hey, that's just me. Now, I must return to fall time, yard clean-up duties, while recovering from a crappy cold. :sad: Rather be in the garage.
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This is awesome! God bless you. I love that one of the main reasons for this swap is to put something under the hood bulge!
Keep at it, I'm loving this.
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Thanks for riding along TAT. More to come, (once I get these God forsaken leaves gone.) Tomorrow is Sat. My day off. And of course, it's suppose to rain....on all my leave piles, ready for the dump. Guess I'll be getting wet. Won't do my cold any good. (I know..."quit belly-aching, and get it done.") :?
Need ta get this car on the lift again, and get this clutch workin. Also wanna stab the driveshaft, and see how it fits the T5. That shouldn't take long.
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Finally made some time to play. I needed some hyd. hood supports that were worn out, and am tired of working around a prop rod, holding it up. Once replaced, I decided to end the weekend, with some more play time on the air cleaner, and cold air system. I was able to do some modifying of the 80 T/A air cleaner base, and got it to sit flat, (W/O hitting the wiper motor). But I wasn't sure how close it would come to the brake booster. So I stuck it back on the firewall, and altho it's close, there is room...barely. Then I scabbed an old air cleaner top, and cut it down to the size of the air filter element. It now has the same appearance of the shaker system on the 2nd gens. Nothing is pretty ...yet.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/cold_air_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/cold_air_004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And amazingly, I can now close the hood, with room to spare.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/cold_air_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/cold_air_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
The next step will be to fab a pan with a foam seal on the hood, which should be doable. I don't want it to look makeshift, if I can help it, and will be looking for more ideas, or factory systems that might fill the void. As for now, I couldn't resist sticking these decals on the hood. (Just for fun) :-D
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/cold_air_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/cold_air_005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
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Yeah buddy!! I knew you could get it to fit. Just like factory now.
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LOL. Sure, I'll call it a "prototype". :lol:
Tonite I think I'll get it back up in the air, and start looking at connecting the Z-bar and brackets. I'm missing the one that bolts to the frame. It's actually a double bracket, (Why (?) I haven't a clue.). I have one half of the two. Will probably need to fab the outer one. More pics to come.
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I like the TA 4.9 decal on the hood!
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So do I. I call it "incentive". (Maybe I should give my 73 a rest, and use the 4.9 decal as my avatar?)
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Great job looks amazing in there.
Tom H
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Hi Tom. I don't know about it "looking" amazing, but thanks. If you're insinuating fwd progress, it's a slow process, but it's getting there. I look fwd to the part when I actually, "do" get to make it look nice. One stage at a time tho, right? :)
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Building is always a struggle for me, make it pretty while cutting, grinding and welding or work prettiness after everything fit and works as it should?
Tom H
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Sweet progress. I hate hood props too. Through the years, I've had my share of broom handle props :lol:
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Seeing fall clean-up is ending, (but work still needs OT), and the weekend holiday is upon us, I made some garage time tonite. Got the T/A back up in the air, to check a few items off the list. Fortunately the weather is cooperating, and not too chilly.
1st on the agenda, was to make an access/observation port, in the drivers wheel well, to inspect or maintain the actions of the frame side of the problematic clutch Z bar. I believe I'll try and design a better method of attaching it to the frame. The original has some weird 2 piece bracketry, that is tough to find. Can't find a schematic to show it, cause the other website is "blocked" for some reason. Here's a couple pics of the roughed out hole. Will clean-up, and shield it, at a later date.(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/001_4TLMjrVafkNEYppUEcdRFW.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/001_4TLMjrVafkNEYppUEcdRFW.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/002_ssTH9YpRjx3g53zt5zM6Er.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/002_ssTH9YpRjx3g53zt5zM6Er.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
In the above photos, you can see the lead bracket, is not bolted to anything, and is just dangling crooked. If I remove it, and make a single heavy duty 90° bracket, slotted on the top, to drop the ball stud into, (as in all the previous designed clutch brackets), maybe it'll last longer. When trying to view that Z-bar from above, it's almost impossible to see, due to the brake booster and wiring conduits in the way.
Then I stuck the driveshaft in, just to ensure compatibility to the tranny output shaft, and the length dictated by the location of the Pontiac eng. mounts. And it all looks good. (well, maybe not "Looks good', but at least it fits.)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/008.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/008.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/009.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/009.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(Check out that "torque arm". Engineering marvels, at their best :lol:)
And last came the exhaust conundrum. The original 80 T/A down pipe from the turbo, was interfered with somewhere below, and needed some more attention, to figure it out. Was hoping it would be useable, but doesn't appear it'll work. just too tight under there. One area that hits, is between the RHS exhaust manifold, and frame stub. Think it's visible from the eng. bay photo below.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/003_kS6ynifXLAyUNPnRMpiyfq.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/003_kS6ynifXLAyUNPnRMpiyfq.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
I guess the next photo from underneath will show some other obstructions. I think a custom pipe will do better than that pipe.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/007.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
So be it. Anyway, before I can alter the Z-bar levers to work, I first need-ta get the bracket made, and attached to the frame. Which will necessitate the removal of the brake booster, ...again. then I'll be able to work in there.
And tomorrow is Thanksgiving, and we'll be outta town. Hopefully more progress on the weekend. OFN
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Bad afternoon in the garage. :mad:
Had all the intentions of working the 84, but wanted to change out the mech. fuel pump on my 83 C-30 6.2 diesel 1st. Curse the chevy engineers for their moronic designed fuel pump push rod. Know all about the tricks to hold it up in place, (didn't work), and have changed the pump in the past, (a few times). Never had this much of a problem. This time I was outside, on the ground, bent over the fender, working from daylight to darkness, and it beat me. Gave up, (for now). The truck is outside, and of course it will be raining tomorrow. Give me the excuse to get on the 84.
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Joe, sorry the fuel pump replacement is giving you a hard time. Working outside with diminishing sunlight doesn’t help. Sometimes when things don’t go well, the best thing you can do is walk away and try another day, I sure you already know this. That is unless you need to use it to get to work tomorrow!
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Well, appreciate the sympathy vote, 5th. It's pretty frustrating considering the simplicity of the job. Altho it's location, (buried behind my garage in the dirt and leaves), that's still not a good excuse. I think the truck is paying me back, from all the abuse and neglect its had to endure, these past few yrs it's been sitting. Hope to rectify that when the next chance becomes available. And will be glad to have the rain, to get back to my real passion. :)
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Got to finish my truck fuel pumps, B4 the rains, and finally got to put a couple hrs on the T/A.
My plan was to continue on the clutch linkage, but remembered I had never finished putting the 3 motor mount bolts into the lower brackets to the subframe. 2 on the top, and one on the bottom. The bottom ones I did 1st, and were easy. Accessed them from underneath, thru the rear lower A frame pockets. the top ones...a different story. No way to put an air gun to them, and being crushed nuts, is pretty tough with small, common hand tools. Wasn't bad at disassembly, but trying to catch the nuts was very trying. Wobblers that you can't wobble, cause of the excessive angle, and richie ratchets that don't come long enuff, had me done after a couple hrs. Only got one side "almost" completed. Will post more, after the passenger side gets finished. "Man!" :-?
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People that never done anything like this before or any work think that a bolt should only take few minutes... thats never the case, we all spent hours on one bolt, keep at it Joe one bolt a time.
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Truer words, never spoken. Well said, Jack, and thanks for the encouragement. Need all I can get these days. And now, back to the grind tomorrow. Good luck with your week. :)
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BTW I love the new avatar, very fitting.
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Thanks. Mike helped me a bunch with it. (And now, it's time for "Yellowstone") OFN :)
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Well you certainly get an "A" for effort! On my 79, the Z bar mount is a simple flat bracket with 3 bolt holes for the frame and a slot to mount the ball stud. Maybe you could alter those pipes to get a little to get more clearance (shorten or rotate).
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Good suggestion, Bob. I have a ball/stud on the eng., (as we're all familiar with), but not sure if the 3rd gen ball length is altered. I'm sure the ball I have is a 2nd gen. And I've heard horror stories of all the "problems" with the 3rd gen set-up. I'ld like to know what the actual issue is. Are the levers bending or breaking, and why? Is the double bracket on the frame side that attaches the Z-bar loosening up? Is the angled pushrod from the pedal to the Z-bar lever adding any resistance? Is the plastic bushings placed all over the attaching points wearing excessively? I don't know anyone with this set-up, to get info from, just the nay sayers on the brand X forum complaining. Hoping to get past it. But tonite, I'll continue with the lower eng. mount bracket bolts.
(Now where did I put that pound of patience?) :?
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Accomplished what I wanted, finally, and was glad to find my pound of patience, cause it really came in handy.
The photo below shows the location of the bottom bolt/nut assy of the mount. Easy enuff for a second grader. Sorry, it's a bit blurry, but at least you get the picture. It's inside the bracket for the lower A frames.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301_mount_bolts_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301_mount_bolts_002.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
The 2 upper bolts, were a different story. I already mentioned, and showed photos of the factory ones I needed to remove. They weren't as bad, but the upper ones also were a fight to remove. But trying to install the nuts, inside the spring pockets, puts a whole new perspective on "somewhat difficult to achieve". It was hard enuff, just trying to get this shot, because of the shadows, and darkness.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301_mount_bolts_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/301_mount_bolts_001.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
This photo is on the drivers side, and you can see the spring compressor, pulling the coil down, to access the bolt, (which needed the nut, of course). The other bolt/nut was just to the right, in the shadow. It took about an hr 1 night for the drivers side tops, and the same the next night for the other side. And because the crush nut is so tight, couldn't even tighten them up. Once the motor is back out, I'll be able to impact them tight, from above. "Whew!" The need for wobblers, extensions, and a combobulation of other tooling, had the be finagled with, in order to accomplish this. And mostly, some luck...catching the 1st threads of the nuts.
You can also see in the above photo, the old holes, for the chevy mounts. So, all in all, it can be done, but would be a ton more pleasurable, if the springs were out. I had thought about it yesterday, but it would just open up a hole new can of worms, I'm not looking to deal with...at this time. Not the "smartest way" to do this, but a bit quicker in the long run. At least for me.
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Congratulations! Have yourself an adult beverage, you deserve it!
Man I hear you and fight with nuts and bolts. The rusted stuck and weird location of bolts is eating up so much of my time it looks like I'm not getting anything done on my F1 project. I feel your pain!
Just keep the updates coming!
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Well Luke, (?), I guess it's the "journey" we're suppose to enjoy, unlike the finished product, that doesn't bring us the same kinda reward, as if we didn't get down and roll around in the mud a while. (these days, I can do W/O the mud, if ya know what I mean).
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Ya, It's Luke. The getting down ain't so bad, it's the getting back up part I struggle with.
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Well Luke, (?), I guess it's the "journey" we're suppose to enjoy, unlike the finished product, that doesn't bring us the same kinda reward, as if we didn't get down and roll around in the mud a while. (these days, I can do W/O the mud, if ya know what I mean).
I wonder if that's why I end up selling the cars after I finish them?? :shock:
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No, that is just some sort of mental problem. :grin:
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Well Luke, (?), I guess it's the "journey" we're suppose to enjoy, unlike the finished product, that doesn't bring us the same kinda reward, as if we didn't get down and roll around in the mud a while. (these days, I can do W/O the mud, if ya know what I mean).
I wonder if that's why I end up selling the cars after I finish them?? :shock:
No, that is just some sort of mental problem. :grin:
Hey! Did you just say that "out-loud"? LOL. (I'm sure he meant it in a "tenderhearted" way Luke. :)
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He knows I'm kidding. Ryan and I talk quite a bit outside this forum. 5 or 6 years ago he helped me out by reprogramming the ecu for my LS swap and answered a bunch of my questions when I couldn't get it running right. Ever since then we shoot texts back and forth when either of us need info. It's funny to have friends that you have never met. I have made a few because of this forum. Anyway sorry to derail your awesome turbo Pontiac powered 3rd gen thread. Please continue!
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He knows I'm kidding. Ryan and I talk quite a bit outside this forum. 5 or 6 years ago he helped me out by reprogramming the ecu for my LS swap and answered a bunch of my questions when I couldn't get it running right. Ever since then we shoot texts back and forth when either of us need info. It's funny to have friends that you have never met. I have made a few because of this forum. Anyway sorry to derail your awesome turbo Pontiac powered 3rd gen thread. Please continue!
No problem, boss. Gutta have a laugh at some point. Not just with my "transplant". :lol:
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Well Luke, (?), I guess it's the "journey" we're suppose to enjoy, unlike the finished product, that doesn't bring us the same kinda reward, as if we didn't get down and roll around in the mud a while. (these days, I can do W/O the mud, if ya know what I mean).
I wonder if that's why I end up selling the cars after I finish them?? :shock:
No, that is just some sort of mental problem. :grin:
Hey! Did you just say that "out-loud"? LOL. (I'm sure he meant it in a "tenderhearted" way Luke. :)
Haha, I have thick skin and I know he meant it in the best way possible. But at the same time, maybe he's onto something. :lol:
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Put some time into the Z-bar tonite, and looks like it has possibilities of working W/O modification. (With the exception of the frame bracket.) It's super tight all around it, but has "most" of the clearances needed to operate. The "S" bend in the tube actually fits perfectly around the Floor/cowl/ firewall, (where they all join). The only area of concern is where the clutch fork protrudes from the bellhousing. Even with the fwd bend in the chevy fork, when the clutch pedal is pushed, the fork moves rearward, and looks like the floor pan/tunnel bulge will interfere. But it's ever-so-slight, and I think I can "reshape it, W/O interfering with the interior cosmetics too much. I'll post some pics when I get further along.
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Z-bar continuation,
Got a few pretty good shots of the linkage tonite. 3 areas. Top (eng. compartment), bottom, and wheelwell.
The 1st one below, shows the linkage laying in place. I highlighted the non tapped, original holes for the missing bracket, (I don't have), and I don't see a good way of mounting an angle iron bracket, because the end of the Z-bar tube is "exactly" in line with the centerline of the bolt holes. (Under the shadow) I just can't for the life of me visualize something to use those holes. Even the sister bracket that bolts to it, (I "do" have) doesn't work, because of a clearance issue I won't bore you with. You can also see my "mule" bracket, fabbed to the Z-bar. Another shot of that below, in the wheelwell.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/001_wSYxWAucr9ihVMDyQoJc4U.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/001_wSYxWAucr9ihVMDyQoJc4U.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/005.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
My focus right now is on that bracket, and coming up with a way of bolting to something sturdy, and making the bracket rugged too.
And the photos below, are of the Z-bar from below, it's corresponding lever, and linkage. The 1st pic gives you an idea of how far back the ball is, relative to the frame bracket. The "S" bend is a 'must" for this application. (Heck, even with the 305)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/002_nC5fpP3tP3BLu3hnbE5P3a.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/002_nC5fpP3tP3BLu3hnbE5P3a.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
You might think "how will it rotate, if the cowl is in the way. When the clutch pedal is depressed, it only rotates a few degrees, so amazingly there is clearance. But I still might need to "adjust" the sheetmetal a bit. Just like where the clutch fork is shoved rearward, might interfere with the floorpan/tunnel area. I don't have a good angle of it, but you gut the idea.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/003_or37siBF11CmCUJC4p8tJb.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/003_or37siBF11CmCUJC4p8tJb.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/004.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
And lastly, the starter is still missing as you can see, but fortunately it won't be any problem with linkage. Also you can see in the 2nd photo up, how close the torque tube and ball is to the 301s #7 cylinder exhaust port/ manifold. We're talkin less than a quarter inch. But it will work.
So there you have it. Moving fwd, (at a snails pace). Being winter time, (holidays), and OT required in work, free time is scarce right now.
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Can you shoot and post a few more pix of the first pic from different angles?
I may see one way to do this.
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Which "1st pic" are you referring to SB? The one in the eng. compartment, or the 2nd one above here, with the clutch fork?
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Looking at both I am thinking you can mount it outside the inner fender well.
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I'm assuming you're referring to the top 2 photos, the one in the eng. compartment, and the pic below it, of the wheelwell shot, showing the access hole with the home-made bracket on the end of the tube/z-bar. Altho the bracket is just a mock-up, I'm thinking of bolting it (as I think you're aiming at), is to the side of the frame (?)(Is it really a "frame"?). Not really sure how thick that material is, to hold the load of the pedal pressure, when activating the clutch. I know above that frame rail, where those unthreaded factory drilled holes are, look to be a good solid 1/4" thick. Don't know if the entire frame section is like that, or just some nut plates for the holes. I'ld like ta start drilling some "test" holes, to check the thickness, but don't wanna have it lookin like swiss cheese either. :-?
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Drilled, tapped, and bolted the above Z bar frame bracket thru the hole in that bracket, as seen in the wheelwell photo above. Which meant I could finally test the geometry of the entire linkage out.
My 1st concern- was how much pedal effort there would be, because the upper lever on the torque tube is about 1/2 the length of the other Z-bar levers from previous generations of mechanical clutches. Which is good in one way, in that the tube will rotate a longer distance, to the same throw as the pedal movement. But, with 1/2 the leverage, will it cause greater resistance? Of course I'm just using a stock diaphragm pressure plate, which are known to not have that much resistance, so that might ease the load on the ball pivots at each end.
2nd, when the tube rotates thru its travel, will it hit the cowl on the bend section, in the middle?
And last, will the lower lever to the clutch fork travel far enuff to loosen the clutch disc, or will the clutch fork hit the floor pan, in the areas i mentioned above?
So now that I got to operate it last night, (with my daughters help), The effort is normal, (whew), the tube clears the cowl where the bend is, but the fork isn't moved far enuff to disengage the clutch disc. "But", is it because the fork is hitting the floor on its farthest travel? Not sure, cause I believe the pedal went all the way to the floor when she pushed it, and when the fork appeared to touch the floor, it was at its last fraction of an inch of movement. I now will need-ta make some minor clearance adjustment to the tunnel, but also think I'll need-ta make a hole further up the lower lever, to make it travel a bit further. More to come.
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...Not really sure how thick that material is, to hold the load of the pedal pressure, when activating the clutch. I know above that frame rail, where those unthreaded factory drilled holes are, look to be a good solid 1/4" thick...
IIRC it is 11 gauge (0.117") thick. Borderline with 4 mounting bolts unless you use nutserts, or weld a tab to the side.
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I believe you're correct on that SB. I had to use a 5/16x20 tap for the bolt I'm using right now into that area. And there's only a couple threads holding it. It's more of a shear load, and good enuff for testing anyway. I'm trying to figure a way to use the existing holes on top of the frame for a bracket, similar to the factory one(s), except simpler and stronger. Just can't seem to visualize it...yet.
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Christmas season every year destroys my garage time. With work OT requirements, and family obligations, free time is non-existent.
Hoping to get back out there soon. "Happy New year" to all the members.
(Let's see, what is it now..."1984?) :???:
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dammit! you tease us as I thought you had sorted out the bellcrank issue...
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LOL. Gettin there SB. With the above set-up, I think I mentioned that when the pedal is on the floor, (with no rug or padding), there's only about .010 clearance between the clutch disc and flywheel. Is that enuff to disengage the tranny? Don't know, cause I don't have it behind a running motor...yet. Wish I had another 4 speed car, I could access to check.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/003_or37siBF11CmCUJC4p8tJb.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/003_or37siBF11CmCUJC4p8tJb.JPG?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Anyway, in the above photo of the Z-bar lever under the car, it's a bit beat up, and rewelded, where the push rod for the fork connects to it. If you can see below the swivel nut, where the pushrod connects to the lower lever, you'll notice where it was broke off, where an attaching hole seems to be. (the 3 photos in the last above posts, show this better.) If I re-weld on an extension of about an inch and a half, I can lower the push rod hole an inch, (back to where it seems to have been), and put a clearance divot in the floor to clear the added movement, and hopefully gain some more travel to disconnect.
But next on my "ta-do" priority list, is to get my JD 214 fuel system back together, so I can re-install the snow blower attachment, just to ensure we won't get anymore snow this winter. Will that mentality work?
And I am on vacation this week, and my travels are "almost" completed, so I'm hoping to get back out there. I did re-fill my propane bottles, so there is now heat back out there in the garage, which will give me more incentive. I'll be back. :smile:
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Looking forwards to seeing some progress but I'm glad you took some time off.
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Hello Jack. Now it's your turn.
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If you can put it in gear you can push in the clutch and spin the driveshaft instead?
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I'll give that a try.But 1st, I'll need-ta put in the shifter, or at least the shift block to see what gear it's in.
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Dang holidays get in the way of real enjoyment :lol:
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I know, right? And to top it off, I wuz suppose to be on vacation till tues., and yesterday my work left a message on my answering machine, asking for me to go in "Mon", which is suppose to be a holiday. :mad:
2 TAs, 2 diesel trucks, (my projects) that just can't seem to make it up the priority list. But with my 84 T/A, I'll be forcing myself to work it during weekdays, after work, to show some progress. Even if it's only a few hrs a week.
Today, I'll continue on my 214, and truck, which are more critical in need of repairs, before I get to the 84, which will be tomorrow. Unless I get my others caught up.and can squeeze some time in this afternoon. The temps once again have warmed up to about 50°, so hopefully I'll get there. Gunna take scarebirds advice, and see if the driveshaft will rotate when it's in gear, and the clutch is depressed.
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Would something like this eliminate the need for a Z-Bar?
[urlhttps://www.jegs.com/i/McLeod/673/13645/10002/-1?gclid=CjwKCAiA8OmdBhAgEiwAShr40wfu18GJrc6ivFY1R9_XRtk1SVJDqwnJh7eOFyMZ8rNqkijQev2TSBoC0wUQAvD_BwE[/url]
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If he ca make the Z-bar work he is ahead.
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Sorry Tom, I've been tied up with other chores, and haven't been able to check out your link. But I will. And like SB has responded, the Z bar will work, once I can get back to it. But I will check out your link, after work. Thanx.
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I tried to copy the link, (McLeod) and couldn't get it to work. Is it a hyd. clutch?
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*poke*
Got my 71 done - where are you? :lol:
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Just came back from a short stint in Fla, and now the new year begins. Hopefully back in the garage this weekend.
Congrats on your 71. Time for some track testing?
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no track stuff, street cruiser. T/A is the track car.
(https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=605695&stc=1&d=1674337319)
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Just came back from a short stint in Fla, and now the new year begins. Hopefully back in the garage this weekend.
Congrats on your 71. Time for some track testing?
Good. I'm sure the warm weather was nice but again it's not like we had a real winter so far.
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You got that right Jack. Weather's been extraordinary, and I'm not complaining. Hoping it's making your business travels easier.
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Still nothing new...sorry. After Christmas excursions, tractor repairs, and Fla. partial vacation, came back to "demousifying" our kitchen, and re-opening an old project, (from last yr) of building cherry wood counter-tops for my lower kitchen cabinets. And a new farmhouse sink. Not that it needs it, What it needs is the 75 yr old iron supply lines removed, because of mineral deposit clogs, slowing our faucett down to almost trickles. So if I'm working there, might as well improve what's above. (Happy wife...happy life). I'm sure you've all been there. Because the weather has been so nice, it's killing me not to get back out in the garage. :(
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What? You have more than one project? That poor Trans Am waiting to be finished. How could you?
Seriously......I know how it feels. ;-)
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Now I feel even more guilty. LOL :sad:
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Glad to see you haven't abandoned it completely. At least you think about it. With two car projects I have going, I haven't even thought about the 79 formula I have stored in the pole barn.... Other than maybe selling it to fund the other 2-3 car projects...
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Still nothing new...sorry. After Christmas excursions, tractor repairs, and Fla. partial vacation, came back to "demousifying" our kitchen, and re-opening an old project, (from last yr) of building cherry wood counter-tops for my lower kitchen cabinets. And a new farmhouse sink. Not that it needs it, What it needs is the 75 yr old iron supply lines removed, because of mineral deposit clogs, slowing our faucett down to almost trickles. So if I'm working there, might as well improve what's above. (Happy wife...happy life). I'm sure you've all been there.
Yes, a simple kitchen freshen-up is never simple. It just evolves into more and more... :lol:
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LOL. I had you in mind Mike, when I was mentioning "just a quick refresher" in the kitchen, and what you have on your plate. At least you're on the home stretch, and all is looking superb. You've done quite the work on it, and should be proud of what you've accomplished.
(And now back to our regular scheduled programming.) :).
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A kitchen project in middle of winter? I guess that gives you more time to do car work in the spring :P
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Hello Jack. Thanks for stopping in.
My kitchen refresher just got side-tracked with the Mrs. telling me yesterday evening, (Sunday nite...B4 mon. work) "Oh, by the way, the dryer quit working". :-x
The labor hrs I've spent over 2 days, could've paid for a new dryer. All systems test OK, (Except the one that isn't), and yet still the dryer won't start. Has power everywhere, but the one place it doesn't, I haven't located...yet.
Home ownership, and DIY is really beginning to suck.
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I don't know what brand/type of dryer you have but the same thing happened to us about 6 months ago. It was the thermal fuse in back. It was a common part and cost about $7.
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Thanks for the tip Willie, but if the thermal fuse in mine was bad, (which I still can't locate), I don't think I would have 2 120V hot wires, (and more), at the motor. It seems to me it might be the centrifugal switch, but I can't prove it. Sorry, I don't wanna turn this thread into something else. :(
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Hephaestus is punishing you for not working on your T/A.
Repent mortal!
(http://www.majorolympians.com/hephaestus14L.jpg)
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LOL. I believe you're right SB. At least the car is in the garage, outta the snow.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sorry-temporarily-closed-sign-l13775-lg.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sorry-temporarily-closed-sign-l13775-lg.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Still finishing up household duties. Be back soon.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sorry-temporarily-closed-sign-l13775-lg.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sorry-temporarily-closed-sign-l13775-lg.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Still finishing up household duties. Be back soon.
hahahaha
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Hi Rich. Glad you liked it. It may be temporarily down, but not forgotten. What can I say?
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/emo_shrug.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/emo_shrug.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
(there just ain't enuff hrs in the day. And it "sucks" have-in ta work for a livin.)
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Thanks for checking in, tajoe
That's what I'm doing.
Post some pics when you get the chance.
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Will do Willie. Next step is to relieve the floor pan where the clutch fork could potentially hit, cause it's that close when depressed. Then redrill the clutch rod hole on the pedal lowerer to give it a tad more throw. It'll also help the geometry from the rod to the upper Zbar lever. The angle won't be as much.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sorry-temporarily-closed-sign-l13775-lg.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sorry-temporarily-closed-sign-l13775-lg.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Still finishing up household duties. Be back soon.
IF ONLY WE HAD BEEN BORN RICH INSTEAD OF GOOD-LOOKING, WE COULD HIRE SOMEONE TO DO HOUSE STUFF! AND WE COULD HANG WITH OUR CARS :grin:
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sorry-temporarily-closed-sign-l13775-lg.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sorry-temporarily-closed-sign-l13775-lg.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
Still finishing up household duties. Be back soon.
Honestly I don’t know how you guys manage to find any time to work on your cars. With family and jobs, I put my car hobby on hold for decades. I am impressed by all the multi tasking members. I figure some must never sleep.
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I hear the both of yas. And I know all can relate. If nothing more, our car hobby gives us a reason to get outta bed. Even if they're only a dream, there's still hope for the future. Try ta stay healthy, so we can continue in our "golden" years. I use-ta joke about finishing my 73 as a retirement project. Now it's not funny. :sad:
P.S. After trying to finish my cherry countertop project, was pulled away to do "broken dryer" repairs. took over a week because you can't buy parts locally anymore. No-one carries parts, not even thermal fuses from electrical outlets.
Once that was up and running a few days ago, trying to get back to my counter tops, (tonite after work), my wall hanging bathroom sink drain pipe crumbles in my hand, while trying to snake out a clog. Of course not the easy P trap, but the one heading thru the wall.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sweating_emogi.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/bb453/tajoe/sweating_emogi.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)
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There is a light at the end of the tunnel men. Got my last counter-top glued up yesterday, so alls it needs is some finishing, install, farmhouse sink install, and finish plumbing. How long could that "possibly" take anyhow? :???: (And spring has sprung, so garage time is getting justified) Hope all is enjoying the seasonal transition.
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Here we are, (in new England), and the spring is in full force. The T/As were outside, (temporarily) whilst I was taking advantage of the nice weather, and clearing some space "behind" the garage. Have a full exhaust leftover, and stored out there, and decided to put it "under" the 73, where it belongs. Should've put it up in place when I had removed the 73s 308 posi for Jack, and installed the 3.42 rear. Forgot it was out there.
(You know what they say, there's 2 things that happen in old age. One thing is you lose your memory. The other is..."I can't remember)
As for the 84, it's waiting patiently, and its time is coming soon. Sorry again for the delay.
(And now to go clean out, "inside" the garage.)
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This car work is a hobby so you do it when you want to and when you can.
I know all about the senior years. My wife and I went to Costco on Thursday and I dropped her off at the door and went to get gas. So she was standing out in the parking lot waiting for me to pick her up. A lady came up to her and said, “ Ma'am, can I help you find your car?” That's when you can tell your getting older!
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I thought you were going to say you forgot her! :grin:
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At least is it spring up there finally! I've never enjoyed trying to work on a car when it is 20*.
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I look forward to seeing more progress on this engine swap!
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This car work is a hobby so you do it when you want to and when you can.
I know all about the senior years. My wife and I went to Costco on Thursday and I dropped her off at the door and went to get gas. So she was standing out in the parking lot waiting for me to pick her up. A lady came up to her and said, “ Ma'am, can I help you find your car?” That's when you can tell your getting older!
Call it respect and consideration, Bob. Up here in NE, a lot would've just driven by, and splash a puddle of water on her.
At least is it spring up there finally! I've never enjoyed trying to work on a car when it is 20*.
You're right Mike. even with a "somewhat" insulated, and heated garage, it's tough to get out there. That concrete floor really holds the cold. But I would still stomach it, if I could find/make the time.
I look forward to seeing more progress on this engine swap!
Me too RG. We're getting closer. As mentioned above, mechanical clutch is the "continued" focus.
Thanks for chiming in guys. It helps get me "more" motivated.
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I know it's been "way too long" since I've posted, but home priorities are eating me alive. Just curious about this site. Mike mentioned an issue with the format on some of us being screwed up. The screen is showing mostly (what I call), computer jibberish.
everything is stacked on top, with no real....I don't even know how to explain it. It's just weird. Anyway, I've finally figured out how to post, and not sure about a few things. Will this reply take? And on my thread here, it seems it's a few pages short of my progress. I can't see a way to turn the page, if I actually did leave off at trying to mount the 301T into the chassis. I can up-date, if I get a notification saying this response is visible.
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It’s visible. Some have had success with I h Firefox as their browser working if on a PC. I’ve always used my iPhone without issue.
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Hello Benny. Thanks for the response. Wasn't sure what's going thru here. I "am" on a PC, (don't have a cell phone), and really don't wanna change my browser. My 2 that I'm using is "Brave", (Only because You Tube shut me down, because of my ad blocker, but I can view YT thru Brave), and Google. (which I prefer not to use, but has more available info than most) I did have Firefox in the past for a while, but was talked out of it, for some reason...forgot. And right now, as I'm typing this, the line seems to be infinite, in that it keeps going to the right. But when I submit the post, it puts it in a paragraph. go figure.
Anyway, I was wondering if my thread has ended on trying to figure out the eng. mounting, which is all that I can see here. I've put in many more hrs since that, and thought I had posted my progress here. Can anyone tell me if there are more pages of photos, (past the eng. mounts, that are pictured above). thanks.
P.S. I was able to figure it out, and see that my progress has been entered here. Right up to the point of trying to modify the mechanical Z bar linkage. Hope to get some more time soon. Also hope this little enigma works it way out. OFN
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Glad to hear that you've been making progress! Can't wait to see what you've done, it's been a while since the last update. Also, I've had good luck with the site showing up right with Firefox.