TAC Central => Lobby => Topic started by: roadking77 on September 29, 2021, 06:00:12 PM
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So, last January first week, I took my motor for my 79 to the engine builder. Same guy built the motor in my 77 and it runs better than great. He took a little over a month to do that one. Told him no rush, figured a couple of months and I would have it back. Shooting for mid summer to get the car on the road. Late Feb I touched base and was told 'engine is at machine shop'. No problem, I saw him late spring and again was told things were in the works. Mid summer same deal, no work being done. TODAY, almost 10 months later, I sent him a text. The response was 'I need to call the machine shop and see how they are doing'. To say I was shocked and dissapointed is an understatement. Next step in the very near future is a face to face to find out 1. if he intends on finishing the motor
2. IF the machine shop still has it
3. IF MY NUMBERS MATCHING MOTOR IS STILL ON THIS PLANET !!!!
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Unbelievable, that really stinks. I think a face to face is due....ASAP
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So sorry to hear that! I too am working through a similar situation except the work got done, but lots of things were missed. I'm in the missed of rebuilding half the valve train because set screws weren't installed on several rockers leading to one bent pushrod and numerous loose parts. For various reasons I'm not in a position to do a complete rebuild again (with less than 300 miles since the last one) so I'm praying there aren't more goof-ups deeper in the build. A gamble I know, but I'm facing a full build either way. I've been looking at building a separate engine instead (would love to just order a built unit from Butler or Kaufman but can't afford that just yet) and just swap it out so I can stay on the road.
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That sucks Kerry, often people take advantage of other people's good nature. Unfortunately they will use the no rush against you, hopefully you have some kind of paperwork.
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hokey smokes!
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I had a set of Cylinder Heads go through the same treatment. I took them to a place I had used many timers before, was quoted a price when I dropped them off. Since I knew the guy and had used the place several times, I like you replied when asked "No Rush". Big Mistake. Not only did the place change hands, sometime during the work, but the parts I supplied " Vanished" and the new owners didn't even know anything about the Cylinder Heads. I went down to the place and found my stripped heads, all the valves, springs, guide plates, rocker arm studs....Gone....Somebody had started a valve job, and some of the guides had been reworked, but nothing complete on either head. It was like someone was getting training on my stuff. I drove 200 miles to catch up with the previous shop owner, and retrieved some of my parts, but ended up that not all of the stuff was at either shop. I ended up with a set of Cylinder Heads, that still need to be gone through. Some of the parts are new, some could be new, and some were obviously just wire wheeled all shiny. Needless to say, Way to many unknowns.
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Keep your fingers crossed. I really hope they give you some more reassuring news!
Jim
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That’s a real punch in the gut. Even though you have some good history with a previous build, I would have some real concerns moving forward. I hope there is a good explanation and outcome.
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For crying outloud, man, that's absurd. I thought that whole "resto-limbo" phenomenon only applied with metal repair, paint, and bodywork, not engine builds. Especially when the engine builder isn't a big name that receives a ton of work. I've heard of Butler builds taking that long, but that's because they're a nationwide-renowned shop...
As mentioned already, I think it's time for a confrontation. I can't realistically see an engine build taking 10 months.
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Oh no!!! What a nightmare! Sure hope it get's sorted and turns out well!
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I hope it turns out ok, but I’ve seen and/or read stories on various sites on similar situations where things end up “lost”. I really hope that isn’t the case for your engine.
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No paper work but lots of text, for what thats worth :shock:
The guy doing the build is a reputable engine builder. His 'day job' is owning and managing 3 very busy service shops. One of the reasons I chose him years ago when I did the 77 is because he knows Pontiac motors. He is also very active in drag racing and summer is his busy time on the race circuit. One reason I did not bother too much over the last few months. He builds the motors himself in his 'spare time' which is usually a few hours each day. I do think its stress reliever. When I was there in Feb he had a dozen motors on stands in his build room. Honestly at that time I had a nervous feeling thinking to myself, how the heck does he keep all of this stuff organized?
I gave him not quite half of the build cost up front and every time I see him I offer more money (figure the guy that pays goes to the top of the list) of which he refuses with 'no its alright, Im good'. I am pretty sure at least looking in from the outside that he is stable enough to complete the build. I dont think money is the problem. Covid had a lot of guys sending their stuff to him for a rebuild and I think he got overwhelmed. I just hope my stuff did not get lost in the shuffle.
My bigger concern right now is about the machine shop that he uses to prep the block. I have no idea who or where that guy is. I am really busy right now and dont have a lot of time to hunt him down but may take off early friday and see if I have any luck. He floats between his 3 shops and I think his managers are told to 'not know where he is'.
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Oh man that really stinks. I hope you all comes out good in the end.
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Bummer. Hope it works out OK.
It never ceases to amaze me... all the horror stories you hear about engine builders.
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Sorry to hear Kerry! I was ripped off by a shop near me for thousands of dollars. My biggest mistake was paying the guy $5k cash up front. Sure, he gave me a bunch of paperwork at the end but it was all BS. I still remember to this day, “pre-fitting timing cover…$300” and then invoicing me parts after I told him I done with the build was a big slap in face.
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I'm done with the words, no rush and no hurry. Even if I"m not in a hurry, I want it back on their normal timeline. Been burned too many times with that. No reason to wait longer if they're not going to give you a break on the price. If someone is busy, then I'll be understanding and let them know that their delays are fine, but don't put anyone in front of me just because I"m a nice guy.
I sincerely hope you get it all straightened out and they do a good job for you.
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That’s awful......I hope it’s not lost.
I’m afraid, like others, I learnt long ago to never say “no hurry”.....stuff gets kicked to the corner and not touched.
I’d suggest a face to face, and control any attitude you feel, rightly or not. Best off to stay on his good side and appeal to him to help you get a good outcome.....even if you decide you won’t use him again. Setting fire to the bridge before you cross it is never a great plan.....I’ve seen people do that before in other ways, and it always comes back to haunt them......I used to work in a fairly small industry, where everyone knows someone else in the game.
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Yes Leigh, you are correct. I am a small business owner in somewhat of a service industry. I try to never burn any bridges regardless. One bad word spread much further and a hundred good ones. The guy is really a pretty decent fellow, I have nothing bad to say about him and his shop services all of my vehicles (4 on the road). Gonna try to run him down on wed for a face to face.
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I'd show up and back my truck up to the door and open the tailgate and ask where it is and bring it to someone else.
It's to bad stuff like this happens.
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The last 18 months have been tough for everyone. Although it seems your builder might be dragging his feet, I would hear him out. Opposed to starting all over with a new builder. If I recall you were very pleased with the engine he built for your 77.
I feel for you!
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Hope this helps in any way...
I just tried messaging Paul Knippen (Pontiac engine builder by me in Illinois) simply to get a block cleaned and he said he is not taking in any work right now due to being backed up on builds since last year.
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Sorry to leave you guys hanging. I suppose at this point its all my fault as I havent done anything in regards to this in the last couple of weeks. Honestly dont want to do a smash and grab for a couple of reasons. 1. Yes Larry, I am more than happy with the motor he did for my 77. The guy knows his stuff and does good work. 2. I have known him many years (not that it makes any diff) and still have a bit of trust in him. 3. I have no back up plan as of now. SO, in the long run I believe it to be more prudent to be pro-active instead of re-active. If I take it to someone else it very well may languish on another shelf for a year and a half.
Although I had expected the motor to be finished by early summer, I am not in a great hurry. Now especially that winter is just around the corner. It has impacted my restoration a bit as I have lost a great deal of motivation, coupled with being busy at work, nothing is getting done.
As each week ends I keep telling myself to get in touch with the guy and find out whats going on. My biggest concern is really with the machine shop that supposedly has the motor, not the builder himself. I have no idea whom this machine shop guy is.
I have also lost a bit of confidence in the shop service (not the builder himself, but one of the shops he owns). I have been a customer for quite a few years. I was very familiar with the manager, he then left abruptly. Another guy came in and I quickly formed a good relationship with him. To the point that I was getting large packages shipped to their business to save a bit. I was talking to the manager one day, called the next week and a lady answered the phone. She said the guy I know had retired and she was the new manager. She asked if I had ever had work done there before! I may not be their best customer but they regularly service my 2 work trucks, my wifes car, my 77 and have the motor for my 79 in the shop. So Yes, I have been there before!!
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Not knowing whats going on is sort of worse than finding out it's missing and needs tracking down. Waiting to do something if it is missing will just make it harder. Time to make finding out a priority.
P.S.
I'm better at giving advise than taking it. Hope this works out.
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Shop called and left a vm this morning. Said to call them back. I had to wait for the end of the day because I did not want my day ruined :shock:
We drove by the shop on our way home from work and I stopped in. Lo and Behold the owner and motor builder just happened to be there. I had a good long conversation. The bottom line the machine shop was able to salvage the block, it was pretty rusty and looked like it had been stored in the bottom of a lake. They are doing an overbore but no idea on how much as of the moment. They set the main caps and did the line bore. Thanks Chris :grin: Heads are being finished up right now. He expects to have the block back next week. At which time he said it will be on his bench to finish up. Told me once its back shouldnt be more than a few weeks!
One of the problems was the machinist has had a back log of work. Not really surprised. It does appear to be moving forward at this point. My fingers are crossed.
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Other than time frame it sounds like relatively good news. Was the block rusty when you brought it to them?
It’s not unusual to have to bore an old used block. If he is accurate on timing you should have your engine by Christmas.
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Yeah it was pretty bad. Previous owner did it no favors. He had the motor completely stripped to the bare block. I was concerned at first but when Dale looked at it he said no problem. I guess it worked out. It would make a nice present under the tree :grin:
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Great news Kerry, I can't wait to hear it run.
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Awesome sauce my friend.
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Even slow progress is something, worse still when you see them take on and then start new work. My terrible engine builder took on a second 403 while mine sat there, then saw them complete that engine before touching mine then found out several of my supplied parts, somehow couldn't be located...coincidentally, the other 403 didn't come in with them, but went out with them. And he still charged me for a camshaft I didn't ask for, supplied my own. We never did find out where that other cam ended up, life is full of mysteries, just not refunds or quality work.
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I did have a good long talk with the shop owner/builder. I told him that my concern was with a machinist that I had no idea whom it was. I do trust Dale and his shop as 1. I know where they are 2. He built my previous motor 3. He works on my dd vehicles. I dont even know the name of the machinist? I expressed my biggest issue was the 'the machine shop went out of business and no idea where the motor is" thing. He assured me that isnt the case and the shop is just that busy that the parts have been there for almost a year. He said the guy does all of his machine work which is a lot and he is there at least once a week. I do have a bit more faith from the last conversation. I know from past experience once he has the parts back in his shop it will go quickly. Now that things are in the works I will start to pester him every couple of weeks.
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Sounds like good news to me Kerry! You're doing a 461 or 468 stroker right?? :lol:
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Sounds like good news on resolution to this. At least they still have your engine and are moving forward. I had a similar situation with my round port heads about 16 years ago. Brought them to a very reputable machine shop known for working on Pontiacs. Told them I wanted a mild port job, any valve seat work needed, new valves and springs installed etc. Also asked them to gasket match my intake and mill it to match the heads, which I wanted taken down to 100cc. These were '71 HO round port heads and the original aluminum intake. He said it should take a couple of weeks. Well almost 12 months later I finally got them back after going to the shop several times, talking on the phone monthly and listening or being fed every excuse in the book.
One of the things I requested was to have the heads bench flow tested so I would know what I was working with. I get there to pick them up and they did look good. I asked for the flow numbers and the guy looks at me dumb founded. Finally he says, yeah I think we tested these, but I don't have the data card anymore. They should flow better than stock e-heads...according to him. He said he could flow test them for me, but it'd be another couple of weeks. I said screw it and just took the heads. Cost me 1 1/2 times more to have the port work done than the heads cost me. I still haven't run them on my engine...but finally getting close. :D
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Glad that worked out Poncho. When I expressed my concerns about losing the stuff to the guy he told me about his bad experience. He knew a very good machinist, BUT had only met him at the race tracks. The guy had a great reputation for doing top notch work. Several months had gone by and at a race he found out the fellow had died. He then found out where the shop was, but by then enough time had passed and the machinist not so good son sold everything off. My guy lost all of his motor stuff. So, he understood my situation.
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I talked to my guy today. He is ordering some parts. Block is supposed to be in his shop this week :-D
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Great news! Fingers crossed for Christmas!
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Excellent news Kerry, X2 on hoping it’s done by Christmas. Although at this point a couple weeks one way or the other probably doesn’t matter that much. Looking forward to pictures once you have it.
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Excellent news!
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That’s a relief to hear, I bet.
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I still remember how to rebuild Quadrajets :lol:
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What a relief it was to find out things are still as they should be I'm sure. Congrats, that is gooooood news.